What is the easiest and hardest steps in rose breeding?

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Re: What is the easiest and hardest steps in rose breeding?

by Plazbo » Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:54 pm

Or Blue For You, multiple people have made Blue For You x Fedtschenkoana and there's a bunch of other crosses made on these forums like with Carolina

Re: What is the easiest and hardest steps in rose breeding?

by donald_vancouver » Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:36 pm

To that list of very cooperative seed parents I would add Bonica. Tremendous hip production, and 80% germination for me. Some interesting very-double babies if you're willing to weed through them all.

Re: What is the easiest and hardest steps in rose breeding?

by roseseek » Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:18 pm

It's perfect timing, Joe. Burling sent me her latest list yesterday and she HAS Orangeade in stock right now! How clean it will be there, I don't know, but in the hot, dry, it's spotless and I love it.

Re: What is the easiest and hardest steps in rose breeding?

by jbergeson » Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:51 pm

On the topic of Orangeade:

Stoddard's article mentions its usefulness in accepting species pollen.

Kim Rupert made the cross Orangeade x R. nitida, which he called Orantida. It was unable to bloom in his climate due to a lack of cooling, so he sent one to me and others (Rob Byrnes, I think). I kept my Orantida in a pot, and the second year it was able to make exactly one blossom, if I remember correctly. I collected the pollen and also pollinated that blossom. (It was a single pale pink blossom.)

I can't remember the direction of the cross, but I ended up with one seedling of Prairie Joy x Orantida or vice versa. I've shown this seedling on my R. nitida video. It has interesting spiral patterning of bristles (prickles?) on some stems. Double pink blossoms. Once blooming. Quite large and healthy.

I have since lost Orantida, and never got it planted in the ground. I had assumed it wouldn't be cane-hardy at all when you think of a probably tetraploid fully tender rose crossed with the diploid R. nitida. The odd thing is that my x Prairie Joy seedling is even hardier than Prairie Joy itself...as in very hardy. So that one little set of R. nitida genes had a strong influence moving forward, and/or Orangeade can pass on some hardiness.

I haven't done much breeding with that seedling because Prairie Joy often doesn't pass on rebloom so this seedling might not even have the potential to pass on reblooming in the next generation.

What I'm saying is that maybe I should get Orangeade and work with it. Try to reproduce Kim's Orantida, or make a Orangiana or Oranolina. (Orantchenkoana, Oranthina, Orgosa, Oriolosa, lol).

Re: What is the easiest and hardest steps in rose breeding?

by roseseek » Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:56 pm

I had put Fedtschenkoana on literally hundreds of different roses in my old Newhall garden. NOTHING cooperated until Orangeade. It was because of that success, I chose Dottie Louise as the next recipient. Dottie Louise was Orangeade X Basye's Legacy. Those results were all documented on HMF as the DLFED seedlings with numbers. Of course, the next direction had to be Lynnie X Fedtschenkoana. Lynnie resulted from Torch of Liberty (Orangeade X Golden Angel), a tremendously fertile tetraploid crossed with a wonderfully fertile triploid, resulting in just as fertile line of triploids. Burlington, by the way, is listing Lynnie, Golden Angel and Golden Horizon, a fertile, healthy triploid from Cal Poly X Strawberry Ice, as available right now.

Re: What is the easiest and hardest steps in rose breeding?

by Karl K » Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:25 pm

I have not used 'Orangeade', but it is a beauty.

Stoddard: Orangeade As A Parent (1980)
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/ ... e1980.html

It also has an impressive list of offspring.
https://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?g ... =256&grp=1

Re: What is the easiest and hardest steps in rose breeding?

by roseseek » Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:39 pm

Thanks for those, Karl. I had forgotten that exchange. If disease and singles aren't worries, I can add to Sexy Rexy, Orangeade, Lilac Charm, Mrs. Oakley Fisher, Anytime, Rise'n Shine, Joycie, Torch of Liberty, 1-72-1, Cal Poly, Sheri Anne. Those will accept anything you put on them and give you more seedlings than seeds! They can be pollinated with dirt! Lynnie is one, but like Sexy Rexy, she is SO eager to pollinate herself (as all Legacy offspring are), I seldom use her for seed. Fortunately, her pollen works splendidly.

Re: What is the easiest and hardest steps in rose breeding?

by Karl K » Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:11 pm

I remembered a note from Sam McGredy that seems worth passing along. An abundantly fruitful specimen seems to be less picky about the pollen it accepts.

rec.gardens.roses 12/16/95
A lot of tyros get disappointed when their attempts to cross-pollinate end in failure, as many roses set seed badly and germination is fickle at the best of times.

If you want to have fun, and have enough interesting seedlings to fill your yard - get one plant of Sexy Rexy (Edmunds can supply). It lives up to its name. I often had 400 seed pods from one plant and nearly every seed germinates. Use the pollen of your favourite HTs, the stronger the colour, the better.

One point, be sure to remove every single stamen from the little beast before the bloom opens, as he's mad keen to fertilize himself!!! You'll know if that happens because the resulting seedlings will all be duplicates of their Dad.

Good luck!

Sam McGredy.
And a later note on the same topic.

rec.gardens.roses 10/13/98
The operative word is luck. I never could work out why some years I had super germination and other years it was poor to average. And that variation happened even within one seed parent.

There are so many variables - the weather on the day the crosses were made, the condition of the pollen, the condition of the stigmas, the weather immediately after pollinating, how much water, how little sun the plants received once the seed set. How the plant growth was restricted after seed set.

It would take a huge amount of research to sort it all out.

I got around it to a large extent by only using proven germinators as seed parents. The ultimate? Sexy Rexy.

Regards,

Sam.
HelpMeFind does show an impressive list of children from the very fecund 'Sexy Rexy'.
https://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l. ... =256&grp=1

Re: What is the easiest and hardest steps in rose breeding?

by donald_vancouver » Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:19 pm

I find that making baby roses- the mechanics of pollination and germinating and growing- is not terribly difficult. Culling is a challenge, for sure. For me, though, the hard part of rose breeding is getting results: actually ending up with disease-resistant, cold-hardy, beautiful, original roses. Can't really say I've done that once yet. Not once. Part of it is the simple numbers game: I plant about 1500-2000 seeds in the fall and at the end of the following spring I may have many seedlings, but nothing that meets my criteria. And i don't think I'm being overly harsh- I do keep a number of them. But after the initial euphoria of seeing a nice seedling and saying, "Wow I did THAT" the buzz wears off and you realize it isn't actually healthier, more beautiful, more original, certainly not more cold-hardy, than what has been done before. Sigh.

Re: What is the easiest and hardest steps in rose breeding?

by Karl K » Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:55 pm

Don wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:19 pm
>> Brock (1954) succeeded in crossing pear x apple and raising the hybrids.

Brock 1954 svp?
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Heredity/BrockP ... e1954.html

Re: What is the easiest and hardest steps in rose breeding?

by roseseek » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:38 pm

https://books.google.com/books?id=_qLvC ... id&f=false
Screenshot (96).png
There is also this from the John Innes Institute about pear X apple hybrids. https://www.nature.com/articles/1701017a0

Re: What is the easiest and hardest steps in rose breeding?

by Don » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:19 pm

>> Brock (1954) succeeded in crossing pear x apple and raising the hybrids.

Brock 1954 svp?

Re: What is the easiest and hardest steps in rose breeding?

by Karl K » Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:23 pm

philip_la wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:33 am
I note that, after claiming mastery of pollination, you say you only got about 4% takes. I would speculate that the bees had much greater success. (They always make me feel like a loser.) You may find that different cultivars have different times for receptiveness. (I had a rose whose stigmas were only receptive well before the blooms would have normally opened.) Study them and look for signs of a sticky, glistening coating. That's the stage at which they seem most receptive.
I had read that a well-pollinated flower is unlikely to be pollinated again by some fly-by interloper. That's wrong. And it has been known to be wrong since the 19th century. And the wrongness was reconfirmed repeatedly in the 20th.

Darwin commented that the low seed-set on crosses among the legumes was due to their need for repeated pollination. This was reconfirmed in the 20th century when researchers planted common beans carrying 4 distinct genetic markers. Every pod was found to contain seeds from 2 or more "fathers".

Research on apples showed clearly that the second pollination yielded more seeds than the first. Somehow, a few of the seeds that should have resulted from the first pollination were displaced by others from the second. Spooky! And just to put a sharper pointed on all this, apple blossoms that had been deprived of their petals were still sought out by bees and pollinated.

There is another point that should be mentioned. Fruitfulness begets fertility. Brock (1954) succeeded in crossing pear x apple and raising the hybrids. The "trick" was to identify pears that could be induced (chemically) to bear parthenocarpic fruit. Only these varieties, treated with the appropriate hormone, produced hybrid seeds. Years ago I read a similar case involving a chicken egg inseminated with pheasant semen. Only an egg from a breed of chicken that naturally produced some parthenogenic eggs was able to make the hybrid.

Girdling is an old practice that increases the yield of fruit in seedless cultivars. It has also been used, along with binding, to make stubborn trees and shrubs more floriferous and fruitful. Scapes from the normally sterile 'Pearl' Narcissus, left where they fell, resulted in seeds. Even a completely sterile hybrid Crinum produced numerous seeds, though they lacked embryos.

If a hip is developing, it is more likely to continue developing when more pollen is added. A cross that might not take when done with "pure" pollen, might succeed if the hip has already been stimulated into growth by a more compatible pollination.

The old neo-mendelian notion that stray pollen can "spoil" a cross is rubbish, unless you are obsessed with counting the contrasting phenotypes. In practice, it is usually easy enough to distinguish seedlings from the different pollen parents. Pollinate a pink-flowered Polyantha by R. multiflora, for example, than add pollen from the darkest crimson HT you can find. I doubt there will be any spoilage or confusion.

Re: What is the easiest and hardest steps in rose breeding?

by philip_la » Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:06 pm

Well, the kid just got out of bed *sigh* and appeared to ask me for something, so I asked her which of us taught the other more patience. Dunno if she understood the question, but she proudly declared *she* was teaching *me*.

Re: What is the easiest and hardest steps in rose breeding?

by roseseek » Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:25 pm

Well, there IS "that", but kids teach you patience, too. (I hope!)

Re: What is the easiest and hardest steps in rose breeding?

by philip_la » Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:24 pm

Well, I dunno, Kim. In that department, I kinda think of myself as the teacher. ;-)
(I once joked to my wife that the real reason for the institution of marriage was so that women could learn to deal with children before having one whose welfare is actually dependent on such... I think she refers to me sometimes as her first child.)

Re: What is the easiest and hardest steps in rose breeding?

by roseseek » Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:07 pm

Generating your own crosses and raising the seedlings TEACHES you patience, Philip, just as Susan and Charlotte are teaching it to you! LOL!

Re: What is the easiest and hardest steps in rose breeding?

by philip_la » Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:33 am

Patience is the hardest part for me. I'm surprised nobody else said that. I can get into the zen of most of the other processes while reflecting on the potential outcomes, but waiting to see if any of my efforts came to fruition is rough. (Spoiler alert: They generally don't.)

I've been dabbling in pollen for over decade, off and on, but consider myself a newbie too. Personally, I think that until one has germinated a good 1000 controlled crosses, they are a complete newbie. (I have about 800 seeds in the cooler now, but mostly OP's, and the first of them only just germinated this weekend.)

I note that, after claiming mastery of pollination, you say you only got about 4% takes. I would speculate that the bees had much greater success. (They always make me feel like a loser.) You may find that different cultivars have different times for receptiveness. (I had a rose whose stigmas were only receptive well before the blooms would have normally opened.) Study them and look for signs of a sticky, glistening coating. That's the stage at which they seem most receptive.

Experience *is* important. You will find hat *your* experiences in *your* climate with *your* roses will differ from others. At any rate, the reports you read about will, after all, be statistically fairly meaningless. (Who is to say how many failed attempts were undertaken with a given parent before achieving the great successful crosses we can read about?) I would guestimate that no more than 1:10,000 seedlings are market worthy. Most of us will draw our conclusions about prospective parents long before we approach such numbers with any one plant. If you were to read other's experiences with, for instance, Carefree Beauty or Marthe Carron on this forum, you would feel pretty discouraged from using those lines, yet they have created some of the most phenomenal descendants in recent history, which are still holding their own in the marketplace.

One final comment on experience vs. study: A kid selecting a team for a pick-up game of football, given a choice between the physics nerd who knows everything about the trajectory of spinning oblong spheroids in space and the dumb jock who has been out throwing the ball will likely know which one is a more promising athlete. Hybridizing is as much an art as it is a science, and artists develop their craft by doing.

In view of the dice-roll that every genetics mixing creates, it would be interesting to have a study showing the extent to which greater knowledge contributes to the successful creation of good roses. I wonder, for instance, if 10 moderately experienced amateur hybridizers submitted 100 (controlled cross) hips each to be professionally grown and evaluated, and that were compared to same number from a professional breeding house, what would the actual comparative "success rates" of the two groups look like? Would it be as much as 5 fold? Would it differ more significantly? or hardly at all?

Re: What is the easiest and hardest steps in rose breeding?

by henry kuska » Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:24 am

Re: What is the easiest and hardest steps in rose breeding?

by Don » Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:03 am

>> that was solved with digestive enzymes

Dr. Kuska, I know you told us before how you do it but I couldn't dredge up any relevant posts just now. Would you please give us a synopsis on your digestive enzyme methodology?

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