So what's your magic number for days to harvest?

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Expand view Topic review: So what's your magic number for days to harvest?

Re: So what's your magic number for days to harvest?

by Plazbo » Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:18 pm

I use latex gloves when dealing with hips, between dermatitis reactions with the hairs, how glandular some of them are and staining potential from the hip flesh/juice.

Re: So what's your magic number for days to harvest?

by rikuhelin1 » Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:21 pm

Learned a painful lesson this year that there is a difference and price to be paid if time between harvesting the hips, and harvesting the seeds is too long (usually hips first week in November seeds up to 2 years later ). Waited too long to harvest seed last year and learned desiccated hip hair is a big dermatitis no no for me - reqd hydrocortisone relief. Now shuck seeds out right after harvest.

Re: So what's your magic number for days to harvest?

by jbergeson » Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:20 pm

I think the whole concept of seeds is amazing. How there can be a little life that survives inside a dried-up brown pebble for years and can spring to life even after that.

Re: So what's your magic number for days to harvest?

by roseseek » Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:14 am

Congratulations, Chuck! That honestly shouldn't surprise us, though. Nature provides for the perpetuation of the species. Seeds being able to last extremely long periods of time frozen seems it should likely be the norm rather than something unusual. Whether you subscribe to "intelligent design", evolution or some combination, it's taken a while and some energy to move things to where they are. If the future was as tenuous as another freeze, all of that could be wasted. I asked Ralph Moore once why he didn't keep his seed flats over until succeeding years. He said, first, "there are too many and I would have no room", but just as importantly, he felt those which germinated the first year were most likely to be the more dwarf, repeat flowering types which would be better suited for the climate he was breeding for. Those which required more cycles of "freeze and thaw" would more likely be the more cold hardy, larger and once flowering types which he wasn't seeking. I think both Ralph's theories and your experiences support one another and both demonstrate Nature's intention that whatever happens, SHE intends for there to be "tomorrow".

Re: So what's your magic number for days to harvest?

by jbergeson » Sat Nov 23, 2019 7:28 pm

Wow, that's cool, Chuck. Congratulations.

I was just thinking about this topic because today I harvested seed from the polyantha Pretty Polly Pink on potted plants that I had brought inside because the hips were totally green when winter came and I had to shut down the greenhouse. The pollinations were done around July 26th, which my phone tells me is 120 days ago. Most of them were still quite green, with about 1/3 just starting to show some color.

Re: So what's your magic number for days to harvest?

by chuckp » Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:35 pm

Hi everyone, thought this is too good to keep to myself.
I've written quite a bit on storing seeds in the freezer. This is 13 years since I put 2006 seeds in the freezer. Took "Royal Edward x Love" seeds out and stratified them. Of 132 seeds, 35 seeds have germinated one month into the three month period of the of warm stratification.
chuckp

Re: So what's your magic number for days to harvest?

by Paul Olsen » Sun Aug 02, 2015 8:44 pm

The Rugosa 'Schneezwerg' is remarkable for early ripening hips - about six weeks (42 days). This means with a second flush of flowers about August 1 I can do another round of crossing with this cultivar and still get mature hips before freeze up. It also means there can be a combination of colourful hips and flowers on the shrub at the same time, which adds to the attractiveness of this rose.

Re: So what's your magic number for days to harvest?

by jturner » Sat Aug 01, 2015 1:33 pm

I usually harvest hips after they've started to turn orange, but before they've completely turned color. The number of days depends on the seed parent, and, I suspect, the weather, but it's usually about 100-110 days for modern hybrids. I think that roses native to regions with short growing seasons usually ripen hips faster than modern hybrids. I've had hips ripen on R. rugosa rubra in 60 days.

Re: So what's your magic number for days to harvest?

by chuckp » Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:30 pm

Hi don,
I don't dry my seeds, but they is a lapse of about 3 to 4 weeks between when the first hips are harvested and the
Last ones are ready.
I am so busy with outside work that time I get around to processing hips they are hard and dry and must be coaxed
open with the tip of a sharp knife.
I don't know, maybe the little extra time between harvest and processing gives the hips a chance to mature the embryo.
Chuckp

Re: So what's your magic number for days to harvest?

by pgeurts » Thu Jul 30, 2015 1:10 pm

I suspect that drying them had biggest effect on the seeds, but it could be a combination of the two. Years ago I used to dry my seeds before stratification but I later found that seeds that had not been dried out germinated better and that is why my seeds usually go straight from the hips to moist paper towels now. Also, I believe David published a paper regarding what the effect of drying out of seeds has on their germination. I suppose one could do a test with just drying some seeds, just freezing some seeds and with drying and freezing some seeds to see what impact each process has on their germination rates.

Re: So what's your magic number for days to harvest?

by donaldvancouver » Thu Jul 30, 2015 12:59 pm

Judith- Too many variables in that particular "experiment" to know.
a) harvested too early? Possible but not likely- the hips had colour.
b) seeds dried? Don't know- didn't really have non-dried seeds as a control.
c) seeds stored too long? (1 year) Maybe but Chuck's experience suggests otherwise. And again, no control group.
c) freezing? Maybe for the tender varieties. But the vast majority of my seeds were refrigerated (dry, in packets inside ziplock bags) rather than frozen. Still only had 2-3% germination.

This year, if I have an abundance of seeds (and it looks like I will), I will separate out some for a controlled experiment of sorts: dried vs moist storage in the fridge, frozen vs non frozen. May also do a warm strat/cold strat vs straight into cold strat. experiment too if I have enough seed.

Re: So what's your magic number for days to harvest?

by Judith Singer » Thu Jul 30, 2015 12:40 pm

Do you attribute your lack of germination to the drying or the freezing?

Re: So what's your magic number for days to harvest?

by pgeurts » Thu Jul 30, 2015 10:00 am

Donald,
My experience is similar to yours. Because of Chucks success with freezing seeds I thought I do a test this past winter. I collected OP seeds from three different seedlings of mine, plants that I’ve had good success germinating seeds in the past. I dried them for four days which I figured would be enough to freeze them without damaging them. After 60 days in the freezer, I took out 40 seeds of each plant. I split them into two baggies of 20 seeds in moist paper towels. One of each went into the fridge and one of each went in the basement. The room in the basement where I put the seeds was 55F to 60F whereas the fridge was about 38F. After 60 days there weren’t any germination yet so I swapped locations of the seeds. Took the seeds from the fridge and put them in the basement and vice versa. After 30 days, three seeds from one plant of the basement then fridge had germinated. I terminated the test because I was moving but I would have liked to have continued the test for another 30 or 60 days to see if there would have been more germinations.

Re: So what's your magic number for days to harvest?

by donaldvancouver » Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:04 am

Hi Chuck-
Do you dry your seeds before freezing them? Are they in ziplock baggies in the freezer?
I did freeze some seeds from that 2013- about a dozen different crosses. The only ones that germinated were R. rugosa, which sprouted almost immediately after planting. The others were a variety of half-hardy, tender and Canadian crosses.
I really don't know why I got such poor results. I may have harvested too early that year as I hadn't dated my crosses. But everything had at least some colour in the hips.
Anyway- I would like to try freezing this year as I'm not sure how much room I'm going to have for germinations next spring. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks!
don

Re: So what's your magic number for days to harvest?

by chuckp » Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:18 am

Hi Donald,
Let me reiterate, I've written before about germinating stored seeds before. I am germinating seeds I have stored in the freezer since 2006. I have seedlings blooming this year from those 2006 seeds. Every year I intend to
set aside some space on the germimation table to deal with this backlog of seeds.
"How long will I continue to get germination? " I'm not sure. But this knowledge will help others.

Here is how I handle my seeds. I harvest my seeds when they turn orange or blackish as is the case with plants with
a high degree of spinosissima in them. Here in Z3. Most of my mothers are Explorer or Parkland Roses. These roses
are bred to be early maturing and when field grown must go from flowering to maturity of the seeds in 90 to 100 frost
free days.
When the mother is a Tea or Floribunda rose, it's a little more difficult to decide when to harvest the hips. Sometimes
these tender roses must be sacrificed and kept in the greenhouse in order to mature the seeds.
I work with a greenhouse and cognizant of the time constrains, I try to get my roses out of cold storage and into the greenhouse by mid- April.
No one brought up the issue of Growing Degree Days or Heat units.
I'm not an expert, but I think the geographic latitude of the planting does have a huge influence on the rate of maturity.
Chuckp

Re: So what's your magic number for days to harvest?

by donaldvancouver » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:24 pm

Cathy: I did a very long dry refrigerated stratification last year. I harvested in 2013, dried the seeds for a week or two at room temp, then placed them dry in paper envelopes and then in a ziplock bag in the fridge for over a year, until this spring (I was abroad for a year). My germination rates were dismal. 2-3%, concentrated among only the most willing seed parents I have (Ruby Vig, Tess of the D, Hot Tamale, Morden Cent).

I don't know if it was the long period, or the dry stratification, but I am going to avoid any dry storage this year.

Re: So what's your magic number for days to harvest?

by Hardy_ » Wed Jul 29, 2015 4:40 pm

Judith Singer wrote:I am also processing and drying the seeds right away which I have never done before, but it sure is a much easier method and definitely easier on my fingers, doing it little by little.
Last year was my first where foraging animals were a huge problem, and I harvested my first hips (based on color) by about the end of July, giving them little to no warm time, other than 2-3 days in soggy worm castings, before adding relatively inert potting medium and putting them into the fridge. By September some were sprouting in the bags, and by December a few were a foot tall. Germination rates for some crosses were quite good, so if first flush starts in early April there, as it does here, and you don't collect uncolored hips, you could probably rush things by that much without forfeiting too many seedlings. I can't recommend it to any but the desperately impatient, or to those who have gardens in both hemispheres, but I thought it was interesting that it was possible, even if usually a poor idea in practice.

Re: So what's your magic number for days to harvest?

by Judith Singer » Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:47 pm

[quote="cathymess"]I go by hip and stem color, not day count. Most of my crosses are made in June, and harvested in late October, so the 120 mark seems to be what my roses go by.

Cathy
Central NJ, zone 7a[/quote]

Normally I harvest around 100 days, but this year I'm going by stem color and there is a tremendous variation. No matter how many days the hip has been maturing, I am waiting for the hip stem to start to turn pale where it is attached at the base. While some have 'loosened' at 90 or 100 days, most are taking quite a bit longer - now approaching 120 days for many of my crosses. The downside to this method is that overnight, some drop and at that point I can't be certain which cross it was or even which mother plant. Still it will be interesting to see if my germination rate is better. I am also processing and drying the seeds right away which I have never done before, but it sure is a much easier method and definitely easier on my fingers, doing it little by little.

I assume dry seeds in the refrigerator counts as stratification?

Re: So what's your magic number for days to harvest?

by Karl K » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:43 am

This may not be quite on topic, but it gives an idea of the lower limits for embryo rescue:

Plant Cell, Tissue and Organ Culture 21(2): 147-152 (May 1990)
Organogenesis and plant regeneration from immature embryos of Rosa hybrida L.
D. W. Burger, L. Liu, K. W. Zary, C. I. Lee

Results and discussion
Immature embryos of rose turned dark-brown within one week of explanting onto culture media. They appeared to be necrotic until cotyledons began to expand after approximately 4-6 weeks. Complete embryo germination was never observed. The cotyledons expanded and developed into a callus mass that was subcultured onto fresh culture medium and adventitious shoots began to form after 5-6 months. Several adventitions shoots were obtained from on original embryo. All four crosses responded similarly to the culture media. Embryos explanted onto solid media and cultured in the light developed organogenic callus. Rose embryos did not respond well to agitated liquid culture or to culture in the dark. The culture protocol developed to induce adventitious shoot formation included a half-strength, solidified, MS medium containing 1.0 μM BA and 0.05 μM NAA and all culturing was performed in the light.
http://booksc.org/book/5723451

Clearly, use of such young embryos does not accelerate the process of getting seedlings, but it might be a useful technique when especially precious hips are dropped prematurely.

Re: So what's your magic number for days to harvest?

by jrichardson » Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:54 am

Yesterday I noticed two hips which had turned orange so they were my harvest of the year. After checking my records I found they were 90 day hips. I have others that have been on longer but they have not yet turned color so I am keeping an eye on them. Usually I harvest at 90 days but it is July 24 and we have yet to reach 100 degrees so I am giving them a few extra days.

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