I'm new here, so I'd like to say hi!

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Expand view Topic review: I'm new here, so I'd like to say hi!

Re: I'm new here, so I'd like to say hi!

by jakaufmann » Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:01 pm

jbergeson wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:39 pm
John, kudos to you for your organization system. I consistently underperform in the area of recordkeeping, but have made some valiant thrusts in that direction including creating a Filemaker Pro database, which remains unfinished. I actually was able to print out a roll of labels with bar codes representing a four-digit ID so that I could scan a label onto my phone for entering a seedling or calling up it's record. Sounds cool but it would probably be easier to just punch in the number. Anyways, I can use these tags to number my preliminary keeper seedlings so that if I use their pollen or seed I can look up what they are. For now I simply type an entry into a note in the Notes app on my iPhone, usually along with a photo. That allows me to do a search in the notes app for that number and quickly access the parentage of that seedling. Crude compared to a database but it is all I am up for right now. The Filemaker database remains unused.

What I find interesting is that lineage (ancestry) databases require some complex relationships that even a pretty good program like Filemaker has trouble with. As it is I can create a relationship graph with multiple instances of the rose table, but each generation back requires an exponentially greater number of instances. 2,4,8,16,32, etc. It would be quite a task to go back more than four generations. It's interesting that the HelpMeFind folks have solved this problem.
Yes, the whole relational database thing (to track lineage) is a problem I've also run into. Airtable is wonderful, but if you want to use more than one level up (in a rose's lineage), that's about as far as you can practically do. For now, I've just done that. It's annoying, but it's easier. I haven't tried Filemaker Pro yet, but I'm going to stay with Airtable since it seems to be at least decent for breeding.

I'm not sure if I can easily share a copy of my database as a template, but I can see if it's possible if you'd like.

Re: I'm new here, so I'd like to say hi!

by jakaufmann » Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:58 pm

johnkew wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:25 pm
Hi Josh,

My wife and I are in our 3rd year hybridizing in the Seattle/Olympic area. Coming from a software / data science background I'm personally obsessed with the tracking and process optimization.

We manage our rose database in Airtable and we have out DYMO label printer hooks up to a little Raspberri Pi "Kiosk" touch-screen so we can easily label our crosses in the field without a lot of work. Last year we did about 650 pollinations, and this year was 700. Roughly about 1400 seeds and something like 100 active breeding plants each year.

Here's how we setup our database, if you are curious:
  • Breeding Plants Table, with a unique ID for each plant in our program
    Hips Table, Each cross essentially
    Seedlings Table, Each Seedling that germinates and survives the winter
    [ Year ] Pollination Log
    [ Year ] Rose Log Book
Each morning when pollen is collected or something in the garden is interesting we can make an entry in the rose log book. The entries from that day will be used later to enter in data for the pollination log. That way we can track the bloom cycle of every active breeding plant more or less accurately and collect a series of pictures or observations on a rose as a part of the daily routine. The daily routine should be easy enough to do from a phone.

After we have finished pollinating we transfer the pollination log over into the hips table so we can track their development. If a hip produces seeds and those germinate they enter the seedlings table. If we decide to use that cross in our breeding we will transfer that into the breeding plants program.

The advantage of all this work is that I can then do some post-analysis on the data to see which transitive crosses are likely to be successful. We can also better plan our program for our particular climate and possibly find unique patterns in the data that can help us with our experiments.

Good luck!

-John
Thanks so much for your info! I found Airtable, and I've been putting together my own database in there. It's not perfect, but it's much better than anything else I've found! Good thing to know I'm not the only one, so it must be decent haha.

Would you be open to sharing how you have the raspberry pi and printer setup? That's a piece I haven't figured out yet.

Thanks!

Re: I'm new here, so I'd like to say hi!

by jbergeson » Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:39 pm

John, kudos to you for your organization system. I consistently underperform in the area of recordkeeping, but have made some valiant thrusts in that direction including creating a Filemaker Pro database, which remains unfinished. I actually was able to print out a roll of labels with bar codes representing a four-digit ID so that I could scan a label onto my phone for entering a seedling or calling up it's record. Sounds cool but it would probably be easier to just punch in the number. Anyways, I can use these tags to number my preliminary keeper seedlings so that if I use their pollen or seed I can look up what they are. For now I simply type an entry into a note in the Notes app on my iPhone, usually along with a photo. That allows me to do a search in the notes app for that number and quickly access the parentage of that seedling. Crude compared to a database but it is all I am up for right now. The Filemaker database remains unused.

What I find interesting is that lineage (ancestry) databases require some complex relationships that even a pretty good program like Filemaker has trouble with. As it is I can create a relationship graph with multiple instances of the rose table, but each generation back requires an exponentially greater number of instances. 2,4,8,16,32, etc. It would be quite a task to go back more than four generations. It's interesting that the HelpMeFind folks have solved this problem.

Re: I'm new here, so I'd like to say hi!

by johnkew » Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:25 pm

Hi Josh,

My wife and I are in our 3rd year hybridizing in the Seattle/Olympic area. Coming from a software / data science background I'm personally obsessed with the tracking and process optimization.

We manage our rose database in Airtable and we have out DYMO label printer hooks up to a little Raspberri Pi "Kiosk" touch-screen so we can easily label our crosses in the field without a lot of work. Last year we did about 650 pollinations, and this year was 700. Roughly about 1400 seeds and something like 100 active breeding plants each year.

Here's how we setup our database, if you are curious:
  • Breeding Plants Table, with a unique ID for each plant in our program
    Hips Table, Each cross essentially
    Seedlings Table, Each Seedling that germinates and survives the winter
    [ Year ] Pollination Log
    [ Year ] Rose Log Book
Each morning when pollen is collected or something in the garden is interesting we can make an entry in the rose log book. The entries from that day will be used later to enter in data for the pollination log. That way we can track the bloom cycle of every active breeding plant more or less accurately and collect a series of pictures or observations on a rose as a part of the daily routine. The daily routine should be easy enough to do from a phone.

After we have finished pollinating we transfer the pollination log over into the hips table so we can track their development. If a hip produces seeds and those germinate they enter the seedlings table. If we decide to use that cross in our breeding we will transfer that into the breeding plants program.

The advantage of all this work is that I can then do some post-analysis on the data to see which transitive crosses are likely to be successful. We can also better plan our program for our particular climate and possibly find unique patterns in the data that can help us with our experiments.

Good luck!

-John

Re: I'm new here, so I'd like to say hi!

by Karl K » Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:22 am

Atlas of Woody Plants in China: Distribution and Climate, Volume 1, is a useful book (online) that gives the geographical distribution of Chinese plants. Genus Rosa begins on page 551.
https://books.google.com/books?id=rXTGy ... &q&f=false

There is a lot of coded information beneath each map that I have not figured out. It probably encodes the info from Chapter 3: Climatic Variables and Their Distribution in China. This begins on p. xxvi. There are other maps in that chapter showing comparable climatic regions around the world.

Loads of information in there that I have only begun to tap. The maps help me sort out statements botanists make about closely allied species that are not found in the same regions. That is, a tetraploid species may be derived in part from a diploid that is not found in the same region. But they may have shared a space in the past when the climate was different.

Karl

Re: I'm new here, so I'd like to say hi!

by jakaufmann » Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:26 am

Hey, Chuck!

Those are all great questions. I'll go through them one at a time.
chuckp wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:40 am
What is the USDA climate zone?
I am in 7b which I believe is similar to Washington D.C. (but that may not be right).
chuckp wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:40 am
What kind of soil you are working with?
I'm not entirely sure what kind of soil we will have at our field, but at our home, our soil is essentially totally silty. Actually, I'm having problems with drainage and my plants getting nutrients. I can tell because many of them have chlorosis on the leaves and new growth. However, that's another topic. My father-in-law planted our garden, so I had no say in preparing the soil.

When it comes to soil for my breeding roses,I'm planning to start with them in large containers, so I can essentially create whatever soil I want. Once we plant them in the ground, I plan to use raised beds, so I should be able to also create a decent soil. Of course, I need to first do a soil test in our field, but like I said, I haven't been able to yet.
chuckp wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:40 am
What is the rainfall amounts, and in what season?
When it comes to rain, I'm not entirely sure how to describe it. I'll have to get back to you.
chuckp wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:40 am
and finally, do you plan on breeding roses for the cut flower market, or garden roses?
At this point, I'm planning to breed initially for garden roses, but there is a chance that I'll do florist roses in the future. It's not my plan for now, though.

Thanks for the questions!

Re: I'm new here, so I'd like to say hi!

by chuckp » Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:40 am

Hi Josh, Greetings from Manitoba, in Canada.
I am where you are 20 years ago. You didn't say anything about the geography of the area you
are working in.
What is the USDA climate zone?
What kind of soil you are working with?
What is the rainfall amounts, and in what season?
and finally, do you plan on breeding roses for the cut flower market, or garden roses?
chuckp

Re: I'm new here, so I'd like to say hi!

by Karl K » Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:09 pm

jakaufmann wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:37 am
I know that, for example, the early modern roses (and the hybrid perpetual that came before them) are hard to trace their ancestry. If there was a lot of misinformation and inconsistency with names and origins, that would explain a lot of that!
Josh
Some breeders just couldn't be bothered to record even the seed parent. Too much work, they wrote. One of them only separated seeds by class: Teas in one bed, Bourbons in another, Noisettes ... It was all very slip-shod. Many breeders were very vague on the influence of the pollen parent. They understood that foreign pollen increased diversity among the progeny, but that's about all they cared about. The idea of deliberately crossing this with that began to catch on in the late 19th century.

There had been many deliberate interspecific crosses in other plants such as Amaryllises, Dahlias, Geraniums, Gloxinias. But even in these cases there was no thought (or very little) about what we call "recessive characters". They would cross A x B, then cross one of the the offspring with yet another species.

Some experimenters used foreign pollen ... way too different to make a cross (I would guess) just in the hope of stirring up variation.

Oh, and the problem of unstable nomenclature. Some years back I stirred up some doubt as to whether the Autumn Damask and Blush China were actually the parents of the first Bourbon. I found lists of plants cultivated on l'ile Bourbon and neighboring Mauritius. There was no sign of any Damask rose, let alone an Autumn Damask mentioned on either island. Well, I goofed. The Bourbon catalog was written in French (aside from all that Latin), and the author often referred to French authorities. The Mauritius catalog was in English, with English authorities. Both relied on Linnaeus, more or less, but not consistently.

Well, it turns our that Rosa semperflorens in the Bourbon catalog referred to the Autumn Damask, relying on a French authority. The same rose was still lumped under R. centifolia L in the Mauritius list.

Of course the Mauritius list used R. semperflorens as the name for the Crimson China, while the Bourbon catalog had this China rose as Rosa bengalensis var. à fleurs pourpre doubles.

This sort of confusion sometimes came into the 20th century. Rosa fargesii is a tetraploid species akin to the diploid R. macrophylla and the hexaploid R. moyesii. For a time it was regarded as merely a darker colored form of R. moyesii, so breeders made use of it under the latter name. Not many people were counting chromosomes in the early years of the 20th century. And so, folks who care about such things have puzzled over a tetraploid cultivar that should be pentaploid because it was bred from R. moyesii. Just the wrong Moyesii.
Karl

Re: I'm new here, so I'd like to say hi!

by jakaufmann » Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:11 pm

Thanks, rosegeek, for those ideas! I'll definitely do a bit of research on those and see if I can get some of them.

Re: I'm new here, so I'd like to say hi!

by roseseek » Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:02 am

Little has been done with the three yellow Chinese species, Hugonis, Xanthina and Primula. I have several Hugonis hybrids using Ralph Moore's mini breeder,1-72-1 and I have been working on getting something similar with the other three, but they don't yet provide anything quite as elegant. I would think being in China, you should have a leg up on the rest of us as you have the double Xanthina and possibly double forms of the other two, already. When Frank Meyer brought Xanthina seed from China and germinated them in the early 1900s, he obtained both double and single forms. Double forms of Xanthina were available in the US for a long time, but it now appears there is now only the five petal form. No one who sold the double is either in business or still has it and the folks who listed it in their gardens with whom I have been able to correspond have all lost it. This image is of a double form from Baidu. I would LOVE growing one of those!
double xanthina.jpg

Re: I'm new here, so I'd like to say hi!

by jakaufmann » Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:37 am

Karl K wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:36 pm
Josh,
The early 19th century was a strange and exciting period. Trade with the far East was expanding, and many people would receive plants that they had no idea how to cultivate. Thousands of such plants were packed in boxes and delivered to nurseries with no return address of explanation of where the plants originated or who sent them. Each botanist and nurseryman chose a name to suit his needs, with little regards for self-appointed authorities. Names were deliberately altered ... just because...
That is really interesting, and it makes sense based on what I've learned so far. I know that, for example, the early modern roses (and the hybrid perpetual that came before them) are hard to trace their ancestry. If there was a lot of misinformation and inconsistency with names and origins, that would explain a lot of that!

I have a few books which include lists of species roses, but they don't always explain where certain species (and close hybrids) originated. Do you know of any list or a way to find/create a list of species roses originating here in Asia (specifically China) that may still be available? Secondly, do you know of any species that may seem interesting, but they haven't been extensively used in any breeding programs? I'm really interested to see what kind of new blood I could bring into modern roses and what could come of it. I recently watched a lecture by Tom Carruth, and he explained one of the best ways of getting unique and interesting roses is by bringing in new and different blood into a gene pool.

Thanks again!
Josh

Re: I'm new here, so I'd like to say hi!

by Karl K » Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:36 pm

jakaufmann wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 10:42 pm
I've been trying to read up on as much rose history as possible, and somehow I never came across the notion that there were more than 4 Chinas used (the Stud Chinas).
Josh,
The early 19th century was a strange and exciting period. Trade with the far East was expanding, and many people would receive plants that they had no idea how to cultivate. Thousands of such plants were packed in boxes and delivered to nurseries with no return address of explanation of where the plants originated or who sent them. Each botanist and nurseryman chose a name to suit his needs, with little regards for self-appointed authorities. Names were deliberately altered ... just because.

Then there was the little matter of Napoleon. When he was defeated in 1815, and France was able to rejoin the civilized world, nurserymen on both sides of the English Channel ran to the nearest dock to get passage. This also led to much confusion. For instance, Knight had been raising self-seedlings of the Crimson China. Maybe 10 or 12 of these were in the trade. They were much alike, but professional gardeners could make good use of their small variations in mass plantings. Meanwhile, at least a few such roses were raised in France. After 1815 or so, no one could be quite sure where a given Crimson China originated.

Then there was Knight's 'Animating', a hybrid of Crimson China and Blush Tea-scented, that caused a bit of a stir in France, as well as in England and the U.S. The scent must have been distinctive because Vibert named a rose 'Noisette odeur de Bengale animating'. Alas, the rose seems to have become confused with a very different variety named 'Animated' and introduced by Hibbert & Buist.

AND THEN, 1816 was the year without summer. It was cold. And no doubt the nurserymen had a jolly time replacing plants that were lost that year.

By the 1830s, Parks' Yellow China Rose, which was not Tea-scented and did not have the characteristic glossy leaves, became confused with the true Yellow Tea-scented rose. This was apparently a self-seedling of the Blush Tea-scented raised in France by Dr. Cartier and sold by Cels as 'Bengal Jaune'. It was apparently first distributed in England by Knight in 1823. By the late 1830s a flock of Tea-scented roses arrived from Italy, and all hope of sorting out the mess was lost.

AND THEN came the devastating winter of 1837/38.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/ ... 36_38.html
Again, the nurserymen kept very busy propagating everything in sight and selling all they could raise.

Loudon tried to explain that the true Yellow Tea-scented was not the same as Parks' rose.
Loudon: An Encyclopaedia of Trees and Shrubs p. 343 (1842)
Rosa indica
* R. i. 11 ochroleuca Bot. Reg. has large cream-coloured flowers, deepening almost into yellow in the centre. It was introduced by Mr. Parks in 1824, and appears to have been since lost.
* R. i. 12 flavescens.—This, Mr. Gordon assures us, is the true tea-scented yellow China Rose, and not the preceding variety, which is generally considered as such, and confounded with it.

Loudon soon died, and the confusion has become solidified as "absolute fact".

And before I end this, here are some morsels I found in the Asiatic Journal and Monthly Miscellany. I copied only the roses. However, I cannot find any hint as to who wrote the lists, where in China the plants originated, or where they ended up.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/Ehret/EastIndi1817.html

Oh, in 1830 the Ghent Botanical Society published a note. This is a third yellow China rose that, so far as I can learn, has not been mentioned elsewhere, but may have been used by Belgian breeders.

It is further resolved, that in a token of gratitude, the Society shall exhibit plants for Mr. Th. Beale (*), a merchant in Macau, Province of Canton in China;
(*) List of Plants sent on January 18, 1829, by M. TH. BEALE, of Macao, and which Dr. Moke, on his return to Europe aboard the ship Raymond, had been kind enough to undertake to hand over to the Society.
5. Rosa chinensis, jaune. Not yet introduced in Europe
Karl

Re: I'm new here, so I'd like to say hi!

by jakaufmann » Sun Aug 04, 2019 10:42 pm

Wow, Karl! I really appreciate this information! I've been trying to read up on as much rose history as possible, and somehow I never came across the notion that there were more than 4 Chinas used (the Stud Chinas). I'll definitely check out that thing on Archive.org. I've downloaded quite a few books from there, and I wasn't sure what to read next. Also, I only got a chance to glance over the article you shared, so I'm definitely going to read through it carefully.

I recently met with a rose breeder and expert here in China. Apparently, he has access to quite a few species roses from around China and potentially other roses. I'm not entirely sure if many of those have been used very much in breeding so far, so I'm interested to see what happens if I can get my hands on them and use them.

Re: I'm new here, so I'd like to say hi!

by Karl K » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:48 pm

jakaufmann wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:12 am
Ah, yes! I couldn't tell if you were talking about the 4 Chinas or Chinese species roses that some of the other posters referred to.
First off, there were more than four. And I think it is unreasonable to assume that these four, and the several others, are all of the same one or two species.

The article I linked above mentions this fact: "The history of rose cultivation in China is long, 40 choice cultivars, all everblooming and double-flowered, being in cultivation during the North Song Dynasty (960-1127 A.D.)."

In the 1950s there were at least 200 traditional varieties growing in gardens and parks. By 1998 (the date of the article) there were only around 100 remaining. 'Zizhi Xiao' (purple twig small) died out a few years before the paper was published. Now I want it! <grin>

I read a true story about an old variety. I think it was a turnip that was replaced by a supposedly superior type. Some years passed, and people began to regret the change because the old variety was resistant to a blight that was damaging the "superior" replacement.

We have no reason to suppose that the dozen (maybe) China roses that reached Europe were actually the cream of the crop.

Andrews illustrated some of the other China roses.
https://archive.org/details/RosesOrAMon ... ws/page/n9

Karl

Re: I'm new here, so I'd like to say hi!

by roseseek » Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:30 am

It might have been here on the RHA, I don't remember off the top of my head.

Re: I'm new here, so I'd like to say hi!

by jakaufmann » Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:12 am

Ah, yes! I couldn't tell if you were talking about the 4 Chinas or Chinese species roses that some of the other posters referred to. At this point, my goal is to focus both disease-resistant roses and also trying to bring in some interesting traits from species roses--potentially ones rarely used. I really appreciate your advice about the 4 Chinas! I'll have to do a bit more digging and reading on that, but it's really interesting. Do you know where Paul Barden wrote that? I'd love to see if he has anything more written on it. Thanks!

Re: I'm new here, so I'd like to say hi!

by roseseek » Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:00 am

You're welcome. "China" as in things like Slater's Crimson, Old Blush, Mutabilis, etc., not necessarily the other Chinese species, though it appears from the results I'm having that Primula is far more susceptible to fungal issues when crossed with moderns than either Hugonis or Xanthina. Using Primula with the same seed parents as either of the other two has shown its genes to yield combinations with more foliage issues.

Re: I'm new here, so I'd like to say hi!

by jakaufmann » Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:55 am

roseseek wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:26 pm
Not to try talking you out of looking into the China roses, but Paul Barden, who made some rather beautiful roses, has often stated that black spot was introduced in to many of his lines when Chinas were added. Does that prevent me from messing with them? Nope. Just a piece of information to store in the back of your mind.
Thanks for the heads up! That is very interesting. However, I also know there have been over 80 species of rose from across China, and China is quite large, so it's possible that not all of the roses tend towards getting black spot. I'm definitely going to do some research before starting anything up.

Re: I'm new here, so I'd like to say hi!

by roseseek » Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:26 pm

Not to try talking you out of looking into the China roses, but Paul Barden, who made some rather beautiful roses, has often stated that black spot was introduced in to many of his lines when Chinas were added. Does that prevent me from messing with them? Nope. Just a piece of information to store in the back of your mind.

Re: I'm new here, so I'd like to say hi!

by jakaufmann » Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:36 pm

Thanks, everyone, for your advice and encouragement!

I really like the idea of testing out Kordes and Canadian Explorer roses. I'm not entirely sure I can find the Explorers here in China (I'll have to ask my wife). However, I really like the idea of testing out using species roses from here in China. It's possible I could get something unique come of it. Although, I haven't done any research yet to see what is actually available and what the unique traits of the species I can get my hands on.

Also, I'd love to connect with any of you on Facebook! If you don't mind, send me a private message, and we can connect.

Best!

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