Rootstocks and Flower Color

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Re: Rootstocks and Flower Color

by roseseek » Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:58 pm

I'm finding similar results with several Teas here in the coolth of the Central Coast, Karl. I wonder how they would be in the higher inland heat? I had wondered about the accuracy of using Rosarium Uetersen for breeding as in the inland valley heat there were no sexual parts, only petals and petaloids. We grew and sold hundreds of that monster and none of them set hips nor expressed any sexual parts. Then, I saw it grown along the coast where it was not only a completely different color (pastel coral instead of the Peter Max, DayGlo, fry-your-retinas, Neon posterpaint coral of the hot weather) but semi double with a center FULL of stamen and anthers. The only difference was climate. Why not with the Teas?

Re: Rootstocks and Flower Color

by Karl K » Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:13 pm

A little off topic, but is related to propagation.
The fact that roses can be propagated from a single eye has been known since the early 19th century. Micropropagating from a two bud cutting is not such a big deal by comparison. However, the author (Kane) included an interesting comment.
In vitro-produced flowers are smaller and have fewer petals than these produced on plants grown in the greenhouse.
'Rosette Delizy' was the first true Tea rose I ever grew. (RICA Sombreuil is lovely, but not a Tea). Alas, 'Rosette Delizy' is too, too double to be useful for breeding. I checked on it time and again in San Jose, but never saw a stamen or a pistil. I don't know that in vitro propagation from a bud would help it produce a bloom with fewer petals, but you never know. And I'm guessing that there are other too, too double roses that might release a bit more pollen if forced to bloom on tiny plants.

Micropropagation and in vitro flowering of rose
Michael E. Kane

in Plant Tissue Culture Concepts and Laboratory Exercises (1999)
edited by Robert N. Trigiano ... &q&f=false

Re: Rootstocks and Flower Color

by Karl K » Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:52 am

Now that the days here are pleasant-to-cool, and the nights brushing against freezing, it is interesting to note that 'Iceberg' is growing and blooming to beat the band. 'Burgundy Iceberg' is also blooming, but not quite as enthusiastically as 'Iceberg'.

To be fair, there are several specimens of 'Iceberg' in the garden I visit most often. A few of the 'Iceberg' specimens are not doing as well as the 'BI'. Bud selection is certainly called for.

Of course, a cultivar that grows and blooms so happily at low temperatures might not do as well in the north, where winter dormancy is desired.

How far north does 'Iceberg' thrive?

30 Dec. 2018

Re: Rootstocks and Flower Color

by Karl K » Sat Dec 15, 2018 7:02 pm

I found this item that seems to fit here as well as anywhere. Simply stated, silicon seems to be broadly beneficial, and the ability to absorb it through the roots varies among species, as does the ability to accumulate it.

I have no details yet about Rosa species, but in some cases the reported disease resistance may be due to silicon uptake and accumulation.

Silicon in Plants: Advances and Future Prospects (2016)
edited by Durgesh Kumar Tripathi, Vijay Pratap Singh, Parvaiz Ahmad, Devendra Kumar Chauhan, Sheo Mohan Prasad

7.2.13 ROSE

Mist applications of sodium silicate to rose (Rosa hybrida L.) cuttings decreased leaflet drop and increased rooting (Gillman and Zlesak, 2000). Si alleviates salt stress, decreases malondialdehyde content, and affects the petal color of salt-stressed cut roses (Reezi et al., 2009). The addition of Si to recirculated nutrient solution in a closed hydroponic system ameliorated most of the negative effects of recirculation on cut rose (Rosa hybrida L. 'Kardinal') production, improving stem quality (Ehret et al., 2005). Hwang et al., (2005) reported that applications of potassium silicate had beneficial effects on the growth and quality of cut flowers of the miniature rose 'Pinocchio' in a rockwool culture system. The incidence of powdery mildew in Rosa hybrida 'Remata' from the infection of Sphaerotheca fuliginea significantly decreased with 100 mg/L K2SiO3 applied as foliar sprays, compared to that in the control (0 mg/L K2SiO3) (Park et al., 2013).


The positive effects of Si observed in monocots have generated interest for research with floricultural crops as well. The reported effects vary and depend strongly on plant species. Horticultural crops grown in Si-amended substrates exhibit a variety of responses related to abiotic and biotic stresses and morphology (Mattson and Leatherwood, 2010). The effects have been associated mainly with Si deposition in cell walls and as a double layer of polymerized Si in the cuticle, which presumably passively impedes evapotranspiration (Ma and Takahashi, 2002) and provides a mechanical defense against pests and pathogens (Helanger et al., 1995). Si, being dispersed through the plant via the transpiration stream (Samuels et al., 1991), inhibits fungal diseases through modifications of the epidermal layer of the leaves and fruits, as well as by increasing the presence of low-molecular-weight metabolites (Fawe et al., 1993; Gillman et al., 2003). Si alleviated salt stress by modulating antioxidant enzyme activities in Dianthus caryophyllus (Soundararajan et al., 2015). Si has many effects, which include improving the cell wall thickness below the cuticle and also the leaf angle, making leaves more erect, and thus reducing self-shading, especially under a high nitrogen rate (Mauad et al., 2003). ... s2016.html

Re: Rootstocks and Flower Color

by Karl K » Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:25 am

The Yarnell paper I linked above makes another interesting point about sports.

The expression of a given trait may be influenced by varying environmental conditions. A mutation may occur at any time, but it is more likely to be discovered in an environment where the trait is most strongly expressed. "It might be added that the pink-blush grapefruit appears to develop better color in Texas than in Florida. It is likely that most of the bud mutations of this type have been brought to light in Texas on this account. There is no reason to suppose that the rate of mutation is any higher in Texas than in Florida".

'Iceberg' was white in Germany and white in the U.S. But then it went to Australia where it sported to Pink, then Brilliant Pink and finally to Burgundy. Maybe it's just a coincidence.

Re: Rootstocks and Flower Color

by Karl K » Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:46 am

The hidden traits of plants are often surprising. I would not look to Germany for a rose that tolerates 100+F temps, but there is 'Iceberg'. And England is no higher on my list of places to seek heat tolerance, but there is 'Int'l Herald Tribune'.

Such useful traits may be overlooked because no one bothers to check. For example, "White (85) discusses the possibility of the existence of genes for cold hardiness among tropical species and those having a southern range. He cites the case of a native Texas pecan that was found to be fully hardy in Canada. Three species of Iris native to Texas proved to be hardy in New York. Occasional mutations for hardiness in tropical plants are likely to be lost if there is no change of climate to give them selective value." ... y1942.html

Re: Rootstocks and Flower Color

by roseseek » Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:08 am

Karl, I have encountered the red mutation on Morey's Pink several times. I no longer grow it due to its not being any good for breeding with what I have tried it with. From its parentage, I would have expected it to have produced better results. I wanted it to, but it resisted, so it isn't in my pot ghetto any longer.

Re: Rootstocks and Flower Color

by Karl K » Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:59 pm

roseseek wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:20 pm
International Herald Tribune, Lynnie, Morey's Pink, Bonica, Linda Campbell, Lauren, Sally Holmes...
Thanks for the suggestions. I do hope you can persuade 'Morey's Pink' to complete its sporting to 'Morey's Red'. And then, perhaps, to 'Morey's Crimson'. After all, 'Iceberg' took a couple of baby steps before it got to 'Burgundy Iceberg'.

Re: Rootstocks and Flower Color

by Karl K » Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:38 pm

I was searching for more of Dr. Van Fleet's experiments with root stocks for roses. I found some interesting comments from him (1914) and one useful bit from J. T. Scott, Professional Florist and Commercial Plant Grower in N.Y. State :
Some Tea roses, particularly, have but one main root and a few straggling laterals, and every one who tries to transplant roses that have been growing in one place for several years knows what poor roots they have when lifted, and how hard it is to successfully transplant them. Because their roots are sparse and wiry they naturally need a heavy, stiff soil — or as we say in horticultural parlance, "a rose soil" — and heavy feeding with various fertilizers to bring out their best qualities. ... s1914.html

This makes sense. I have learned from other reports that Rosa gigantea is at its best growing in clay over limestone. It is less splendid in gravel over granite.

Re: Rootstocks and Flower Color

by roseseek » Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:20 pm

International Herald Tribune, Lynnie, Morey's Pink, Bonica, Linda Campbell, Lauren, Sally Holmes...

Re: Rootstocks and Flower Color

by Karl K » Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:41 pm

The influence of stocks is sometimes puzzling.

The Rural New-Yorker, 67(3063): 788 (Oct 10, 1908)
Mr. Sidney Hockridge, Redlands, Cal., writes:
Our soil is a red calcareous drift with perfect drainage, just suitable for strong-growing roses, while our hot Summers ripen the tender wood of the Cherokee so that nowhere else in this country is there to be seen such profusion of bloom, and travelers tell me that the Cherokee rose plants noticed in the Japan Archipelago did not approach in capacity for bloom those we have in our vicinity.

That is simple enough. Rosa laevigata thrives in heat. However ...

Gardening 10(229): 198-199 (Mar 15, 1902)
Hybrid Stocks for Rose Propagation
Walter Van Fleet
...Perle des Jardins, budded on an established plant of the Cherokee rose, Rosa laevigata, is giving splendid blooms of almost exhibition quality, in a cold, damp house where five years' effort with potted Perles on own roots and Manetti only resulted in a chance 'bullhead' once or twice a year. Further trials will be made with teas and hybrid teas on this stock.

There are plants that have shoots that thrive in heat, but have roots that prefer to been cool and moist. Gardenias, for example, and I think Clematises are in the same group.

And I suppose Hockridge's plants were not blooming in the scorching heat, so the apparent contradiction may not be as extreme as I had thought.

BTW, I have been watching 'Iceberg' and 'Burgundy Iceberg' blooming profusely despite the 100+ F temperatures we've been "enjoying" in the past couple of months. The flowers don't last very long, but they are quickly replaced.

Any suggestions for other varieties that can laugh at such miserable heat?

Re: Rootstocks and Flower Color

by Karl K » Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:57 pm

I do recall such a discussion, a long while back. I think that one thread of it had Geschwind's 'Theano' as the bogus Rosa californica of Europe.

That makes sense, in a way, if one regards hybrid seedlings of a species as "varieties". Geschwind also listed the R. rubifolia (setigera) hybrids as "Rubifolias". That (I think) is how 'Souv de Brod' came to be regarded as a seedling of R. setigara, rather than a second generation descendent.

If 'Theano' had 'Crimson Rambler' as pollen parent, the mauve and russet tones are not so surprising. But is the 'Theano' of today the same one Geschwind raised, and is it the R. californica used by Le Grice?

Re: Rootstocks and Flower Color

by roseseek » Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:43 pm

I used to hear the comment frequently made the plant they grew in Britain and used as Californica, wasn't. What it was, I don't know, but nothing in Californica points toward russets to my eye and none of the crosses I've had resulting from its pollen tended toward that direction.

Re: Rootstocks and Flower Color

by Karl K » Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:59 pm

I don't know if the roots are relevant, but I got to thinking about a comment from Le Grice (1968).

"R. californica crossed with whites gave light browns and mauves and further crosses with lavenders gave bicolour browns with characteristic dominant slender but short growth and frequent bunched flowerings. This cross appears to give some stability in the browns." ... grice.html

The flowers of R. californica don't hint that the plant would contribute to mauve and brown shades. Or maybe the plant But you never know.

Re: Rootstocks and Flower Color

by Karl K » Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:42 pm

It is interesting to note that after slogging along for so long with the old and slow methods, English nursery folk and gardeners suddenly got creative with faster methods.

Gardener's Magazine 6: 427-428 (1830)
The following mode of propagation is easy and expeditious:— Put a plant or two into the hot-house in January or February, and there will soon be some young shoots: as soon as they have three or four leaves, take them off, no matter how tender or succulent, but never remove or shorten a leaf. Having prepared your cuttings, put them into sand, with a glass over them, in the same heat as the plants, and in three weeks they will be ready to be potted off. Thus continue taking fresh cuttings, or topping the cuttings already struck, till there are as many as you want. I propagated upwards of 100 plants in one season, from a small plant which only afforded three cuttings at the commencement. ... s1830.html

Gardener's Magazine 9: 524 (1833) 
Mr. Brown is celebrated for having raised two roses of the Bengal kind, viz., Brown's celestial and Brown's superb. They are both roses which grow with great vigour, and they are peculiarly susceptible of training as pyramids. There is here a large stock of that scarce rose, the yellow Noisette, obtained by grafting portions of shoots, containing only a single bud, on stocks of Brown's superb. This is an invention of one of the Messrs. Brown. The scion is not above an inch in length, and it is put on the stock, in the whip-grafting manner, close by the surface of the ground. The stock is of the wood of the former year, and the scion of the current year. Excellent and saleable plants are thus produced the very first season.

Gardener's Magazine 9: 698 (1833) 
Chinese Roses may be propagated from single Buds, as Grape Vines are propagated.— The single bud, with a quarter of an inch of the stem both above and below it, is placed just under the soil, under a bell glass; the leafstalks and leaves standing upright as in a cutting. A single bud of Rosa semperflorens sanguinea was planted on July 26., and on Sept. 8. the bud had grown nearly four inches, and a blossom bud was formed. On Oct. 9. it was six inches high, and side shoots were being produced. 
Charles M. Willich. London, Oct. 23. 1833.

And while I'm on the subject, I've found a couple of articles recommending that 'Marechal Niel' be double worked to avoid canker.

The Gardeners' Chronicle 5: 782-783 (June 22, 1889)
A. D.
"Rosa" seems to have grave doubts as to the merit of double working, as I advocated, for Maréchal Niel, which has long been practised in our great nurseries. Very interesting and valuable results have flowed from the working of some strong grower on to a stock first, and then working a weaker grower of the same kind on to that; indeed, it is doubtful whether we have made half so much of the practice as it deserves. No doubt it requires the keeping of stocks a year longer in the nurseries, as the first scion must have a full year's growth upon it ere that can be budded or grafted as the stock was before; but that objection by no means vitiates the practice, which is, without doubt, a good one. It may seem odd that the insertion of a germinator stem of some strong-growing variety should so materially influence both stock and graft or bud, but such is the case. In my own practice with Maréchal Niel, those which I have worked direct on to the briar, and on to the briar also through the intervention as primary stocks of Madame Berard and Lamartine, it should be understood that these strong growers had created the stock, practically long before they were budded with Maréchal Niel, and so far from these presenting a mere disc of wood in the stocks, they have stout branches of some 1, 2, or 3 feet in length, on to which the Maréchal is worked. Now, whilst in the case of the MaréchaI worked direct on to the briar, the stock has been but little swollen; the branch of the Maréchal, just above the junction, is treble the size, and very cracked or gouty. In the case of the double worked Maréchals, upon which the growth is always very robust, the original budded kinds swelled up the stocks thoroughly, and the whole growth, from stock to top, has grown simultaneously without cankering since the secondary budding of Maréchal Niel took place.

The Gardeners' Chronicle. September 23, 1899. p. 250.
J. K., Wimborne
HAS any reader of the Gardeners' Chronicle ever tried Maréchal Niel worked on Rose Devoniensis as a panacea for canker and loss of vigour after a few years cultivation under glass? If not, a market grower would recommend a trial being made, as with me the Rose has never yet shown a tendency to canker, but rather, as years go on, increase in vigour. There is much to recommend the use of Devoniensis as a stock, it being vigorous, with thick bark, and tenacious of life; the flowers, though good, are not so valuable as those of M. Niel, and it is not so profuse or regular a bloomer indoors. I have tried M. Niel on almost every kind of Rose, Manetti, de la Grifferae, Sweet Briar (which is a good one), Dog-Roses of the hedge-rows, and the less prickly one which grows in damp ground; Dundee Rambler, Hybrid Perpetual, Lamarque, Rêve d'Or, Cellini Forestier, and Gloire de Dijon, with interesting results; but the old Tea-Rose Devoniensis takes the palm for producing the weightiest blooms. I do not mean from Devoniensis on its own roots, but when worked on the seedling Briar or prepared Briar-stocks, which when established make robust growths, 10 to 12 feet long. From stocks from cuttings, excepting in the case of Gloire de Dijon, they do not reach that degree of vigour quickly, but the union with the Briar gives it forthwith.

Re: Rootstocks and Flower Color

by roseseek » Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:33 pm

Thanks, Karl. I guess that kicks the own root antique pushers in the slats, doesn't it? I've battled the own root purists for a very long time concerning Teas, particularly the yellow Tea Noisettes. They CAN root, but it takes forever to produce a plant worth digging a hole for.

Re: Rootstocks and Flower Color

by Karl K » Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:21 pm

In fact, back in the early 19th century, Chinas and Tea-scented roses were commonly budded because they were considered difficult to root as layers or cuttings. These were the original Tea-scented, by the way, rather than the later Tea roses that often had a good dose of Noisette and/or Bourbon in them. According to Loudon (1831) English nurserymen needed 2 seasons to produce a salable specimen. Vibert's method was quicker.

Rosa banksiae was the preferred stock for Tea-scented roses; the yellow Tea-scented in particular. ... s1824.html ... s1827.html ... s1929.html ... g1830.html ... g1831.html

Re: Rootstocks and Flower Color

by roseseek » Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:18 pm

Many of the "antique roses" will always be available, as long as theg ie is sufficient demand for them. Remember that budding is actually a fairly recent facet to roses. It wasn't the preferred method (at least in the US) until the first decades of the Twentieth Century. Prior to that, virtually everything was introduced own root, so many of the old roses should be expected to grow reasonably own root. I would venture that more of the very early Twentieth Century HTs perform well own root than those produced in later decades because they were originally sold own root. Once budding became the accepted norm, who cared if it rooted or grew well that way? Most of the "novelties" would never have seen the sales floors had own root been the propagation method of the day as so few of them are decent on their own roots. And, as Karl suggested, there is likely to be quite a few extenuating circumstances preventing own root roses from being the only way they're available. They may only be available from the large commercial producers on their own roots, but there will be the secondary producers for those markets. I frequently read from northern and eastern rose growers on the Internet rose forums how they prefer budded plants because own rooters simply don't push strongly enough in their harsher winter, shorter growing season areas. As long as there are enough people willing and able to pay the prices for budded plants, they'll still be around. Probably not as great a selection as we once enjoyed, but the latest releases and patented types which command the highest prices will still be offered.

Re: Rootstocks and Flower Color

by Karl K » Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:49 pm

I have been following up on this topic, and can only speculate at this point. But it does seem to me that when we are breeding from plants derived from four or five or nine different ancestral species, the kind of roots the seedlings have will be more of a crap shoot than flower form and color. In fact, it seems that some hybrids may be poisoning themselves because one parent is adept at sucking the last trace of mineral X from the soil, and the other parent finds the excess of X to be weakening.

Roots can exude various substances to modify the local pH, allowing them to liberate some nutrients in alkaline soil with organic acids, while other species raise the pH to avoid aluminum toxicity.

As for own-root roses being the wave of the future, I don't see that happening where Fortuniana rules the roost. It would be silly to breed a whole range of alkaline sand specific cultivars, when most HTs and such can be budded onto Fortuniana for Floridians and West Australians. ... a2010.html

Re: Rootstocks and Flower Color

by dgermeys » Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:33 pm

I tend to agree with Kim.
Also, because if we only have own root roses, the heritage roses, who not always perform well on their own roots will be banished entirely from the market.
Don't understand me wrong, I have nothing against roses on their own roots, unless they use a lot of environmentaly dangerous chemical hormones to get them rooted quickly.