optimization of hip maturing

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Re: optimization of hip maturing

by Larry Davis » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:26 pm

Back in the 1980s I did a lot of playing with ethylene. Not much for roses except to see how it influenced rooting and leaf drop. Sure enough, it it cause leaves to drop on the more blackspot sensitive CVs. Later I found an obscure publication saying that BS causes leaves to drop in an ethylene sensitive way. No doubt it will make fruits ripen and drop, but as mentioned by Bernhard, only after a certain stage when ethylene receptors are formed. I suspect that there is very little ethylene formed in the refrig. If it is a regular one opened and closed daily, it is constantly flushed out. There is not zero, because controlled atmosphere storage of fruits like apples depends on removing ethylene, and regulating both oxygen and carbon dioxide levels. Enclosing the fruit in a plastic bag allows accumulation of gases. Which ones and to what levels, depends on the kind of plastic and its thickness.

I expect that if you keep your achenes in plastic bags which are then in a plastic box like fancy greens come in, you will accumulate much more ethylene that is generated by the broccoli some place else in the refrig. There are anti-ethylene treatments used for cut flowers. Maybe someone ought to try those to see if it interferes with germination.

Several weeks ago, late Nov, I harvested a bunch of very unripe hips that had formed in later summer on an unknown yellow HT rose bush which been subjected to some frost. I took them as 6 inch cuttings that I put unto moist potting soil and covered with a plastic bag. I kept them under continuous light in a 65 degree place. Some cuttings seem to have rooted. More than half of them (6 or 8) have colored some in the interim. Some 3 or 4 did nothing. Some 5 or 6 turned black. Sunday I harvested the undisgusting ones, removed the achenes and set them to stratify. Just for curiosity I cut open a bunch of the still cuttable achenes. 1 in 5 or 6 had a viable-looking embryo inside. I will know by summer if they are OK. Last year I got very low germination of achenes from hips well reddened on these same bushes. This fall I harvested ripe-looking hips in late Sept and they are stratifying. So we will see how it turns out.

Re: optimization of hip maturing

by chuckp » Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:31 am

I came across this thread and have a question.

Most backyard rose breeders like myself do not have a dedicated refrigerator for the 3 month cold stratification.
Ripening fruits and vegetables give off ethylene.
What effects(negative or positive) does putting rose seeds in a home refrigerator with fruits and vegetables have on germination and the viability of rose seeds?
chuckp

Re: optimization of hip maturing

by Neil » Thu Apr 21, 2011 1:00 am

Don: Just spending time in warmer enviremens looking around.

The cemetery is on the hill with the statue of Christ. It was spared along with 200 people that made it there.



I believe this is more of a memorial with a rose planted for each of the 25,000 people that perished in Yangay. The avalanche started 12 kilometers back of the current church and turned into a landslide with 70,000 people in the path wiped out.

This area is between cordillera blanco and cordillera negro, both are steep.

Re: optimization of hip maturing

by Don » Thu Apr 21, 2011 1:00 am

Neil, I'm curious how one happens to wander by a mountainside garden in Peru.

Could the garden be Yungai National Cemetery? It is built on the ruins of the town of Yungay which was buried in a massive landslide in 1970 in which 25,000 people died. It takes the form of a cross a half-mile long.

See the wikipedia for Yungay a description of the event.

If you have Google Earth installed download this file to see the town that once stood where the garden is now:

http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/ubbthreads.p ... 649523.kmz

Link: bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=902880&filename=20100507082636-4be4312cc62020.79649523.kmz

Re: optimization of hip maturing

by Neil » Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:00 am

Yungay

I didn't realize how big this was till about 1/3 into it. The photos are of about 1/2 the area. There was probable 10-15 gal. of hips going to waste.

Link: s1118.photobucket.com/albums/k614/Neildee/

Re: optimization of hip maturing

by Warren Millington » Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:00 am

I will never forget this day, I was using a rose as a seed parent at some ones home, had it loaded with D Austin crosses. I went one day to check on their progress, and low and behold, they had dead headed the bush plus my hips, which were all placed neatly with tags and green as limes on the back porch. Out of 10 crosses I only got 3 seedlings, way to immature.

I can remember just standing there totally shocked.

Re: optimization of hip maturing

by Neil Zone 8 » Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:00 am

Wandered by a place called Yungay, Peru which no doubt has one of the largest rose gardens in the world. No spray, no fert, not much upkeep. Thousands of hips on thousands of roses. These hips where well mature and then some. Some gardens where just weed patches with vigorous roses outgrowing the weeds. Wouldn't surprise me if there where naturalized seedlings or bushes growing. Had to keep up with the guide so snaped pictures fast and can maybe show some later.

In Lima 24 cut roses for five bucks, thornless after plucking. Rose plants bud grafted for 1.45.

Re: optimization of hip maturing

by Bernhard » Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:00 am

maybe someone will be interested in the (interim)result of the small experiment done in the last autumn ?

Test (afterripened with tomatoe): 4/9 germinated (10. Feb. 2011,11. Feb. 2011,15. Feb. 2011,24. Mrz. 2011)

Control 1 (without tomatoe, same temperature conditions): 0/6

Control2 (instaed of afterripening direct stratification resulting in 4 weeks longer stratification time as the test and control 1): 0/11

the girl which had done the test with banana peel got 3 germinations from the test and also none from the control.

with this result I would suggest, that it is useful to treat unripe hips this way. More test would be helpful to confirm this.

cheers

Bernhard

Re: optimization of hip maturing

by Bernhard » Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:00 am

"The embryos are mature and possible to germinate with time. Isn't ripening and coloring of the hip to permit the release of the seed, and to potentially attract something to EAT it, to release the seed?"

Kim,

that is indeed still the question as I mentioned above. Does anybody know a germination comparison of hips at different Maturation states?

cheers

Bernhard

Re: optimization of hip maturing

by Neil Zone 8 » Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:00 am

Bernhard: Thanks for the link. I normally follow them to see where they go and this one led to one of the best if not the best I've seen for roses. I really liked the full size rose bush pictures and the diversity of the plants and some with a huge amount of hips. The rose garden pictures and commercial set ups was also great. It'll take me days to explore. Thanks again.

Re: optimization of hip maturing

by kim rupert » Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:00 am

The embryos are mature and possible to germinate with time. Isn't ripening and coloring of the hip to permit the release of the seed, and to potentially attract something to EAT it, to release the seed?

Re: optimization of hip maturing

by Bernhard » Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:00 am

the pics are now available and it looks very promising.

I know that we need more of such results to be sure, so keep your apples away and change to bananas :-)

regards

Bernhard

Link: forum.planten.de/index.php/topic,21228.msg436065.html#msg436065

Re: optimization of hip maturing

by Bernhard » Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:00 am

to continue this topic....

my little test I've cancelled after one week as I recognized my mistake in the test design. The test hip was covered, the control hip not. One should take more time for the schedule...Shame on me.....

but I imposed a member of the German 'planten forum' to participate. She startet with banana peel as ethylen donor and has reportet now, that the hip with the banana is clearly stronger red than the control hip.

maybe the banana is anyhow the better promotor, as Tomatoes can have lost the ability to produce the ethen, due to hybridizer activities. Those fruits can be ripened controlled.

continue, when a pic is available...

cheers

Bernhard

Re: optimization of hip maturing

by Bernhard » Sun Oct 17, 2010 1:00 am

"Bernhard, where are you located? I'm near Edmonton, Alberta"

Terry,

I'm writing from near Hamburg, Germany, believe the 'global warming' was absent here, most of the time.

".....If you were to take some underage hips, perhaps 7-8 weeks old, and treat them in this way..."

Peter,

I forgot to mention the other reason, why not starting earlier in the ripening process. The final initial step of fruit ripening must still have startet, otherwise it will not work. You can ask an apple farmer :)

cheers

Bernhard

Re: optimization of hip maturing

by TerryR » Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:00 am

Bernhard, where are you located? I'm near Edmonton, Alberta, the summer here was also very cool and I had needed to harvest many immature hips before the severe frost of several weeks ago, what a poor season! Most were struck as cuttings and have continued their ripening, though many of the HT hips have instead just rotted.

Terry

Re: optimization of hip maturing

by Bernhard » Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:00 am

"Not always though. Ethylene gas makes pineapples bloom"

.....and roses too.



just found this between my older pics.

cheers

Bernhard

Re: optimization of hip maturing

by Bernhard » Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:00 am

"if those hips have already been on the bush for 16 weeks the seeds should be mature anyway"

I'm sceptic, it's rather green, very firm and taste astringent.

As it was a cold summer here, the corn harvest is also 4 weeks behind.

But your proposal is also good stuff for more eperiments, I will notice this for my later retirement activities :)

cheers

Bernhard

Re: optimization of hip maturing

by Peter Harris » Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:00 am

Bernhard, if those hips have already been on the bush for 16 weeks the seeds should be mature anyway, regardless of the coloration of the hip. The hip will probably develop more color as it ages, but it's doubtful that the germination of its seeds will, on average, be any better than that of other mature hips from the same cross. If you were to take some underage hips, perhaps 7-8 weeks old, and treat them in this way and leave others of the same age untreated, you'd have a better chance of showing that the treatment has a significant effect on germination.

Re: optimization of hip maturing

by Jon » Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:00 am

"It is fruits that typically respond to ethylene and not recepticle tissue."

Not always though. Ethylene gas makes pineapples bloom. (If anyone has an indoor plant, place rotten bananas by it to make it bloom).

Re: optimization of hip maturing

by Bernhard » Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:00 am

David, Don,

thank you both for response, although your comments are not very encouraging. My thought was that a rose hip is more like an apple than a strawberry and therefore it will maybe work.

The procedure of after maturing at a warm place, inside the house, has been mentioned still in old books e.g. by Rudof Geschwind. But he forgot to say us, how it works. He recommended to put the harvested hip in a pot of wet soil and to keep it inside, until the hip is red. Anyhow, a lot of the hobby- hybridizers follow this, without making a short test or comparison any time, if this is really useful.

So, the small test arrangement will also show if this method has an impact or not. There is also another hip in the same age remaining on the shrub, which I will include as control and which goes directly in the Stratification process,2 weeks warm, 8 weeks fridge.

As it is still prepared, I will continue and if I will find a visible impact, I will schedule a more reproducible test design.

The question is indeed, if the embryo has ripened enough when harvesting the hip (The hips have grown about 16 weeks on the shrub and show little red cheeks at their

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