Species-Modern Crosses

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Re: Species-Modern Crosses

by Karl K » Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:42 pm

I found this today and wanted to put it somewhere appropriate. This is another fallout from Bieberstein's attempt to match a plant from the rocky southern Taurus with something already published. His first (mis)attempt was to call the plant Rosa provincialis.

Transactions of the Massachusetts Horticultural Society p. 42 (1861)
Francis Parkman
On Mount Caucasus grows a single wild rose, from the seeds of which have sprung the numerous family of the Provence or Cabbage roses, very double, very large, and very fragrant. This race is remarkable for its tendency to sport, from which have resulted some of the most singular and beautiful forms of the rose. For example, a a rose-colored variety of the Provence produced a branch bearing striped flowers, and from that branch has been propagated the Striped Provence. The Crested Moss is the product of another of these freaks, being of the pure Provence race. The Common Moss, and all its progeny, owe the same origin, being derived, in all probability, from a sporting branch of one of the Provence roses. 

And as I've previously noted, Bieberstein later changed his mind and misidentified the same plant as R. ferox (=rugosa).

How his errors got moved to the Caucasus is another mystery I have not yet resolved.

Re: Species-Modern Crosses

by Karl K » Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:24 pm

Garden and Forest 5(218): 195 (April 27, 1892)
Notes of a Summer Journey in Europe.--XIII.
J. G. Jack, Arnold Arboretum

At the Royal Society of Horticulture of Belgium ... The occasional flowering throughout the summer of Rosa rugosa is here considered as simply an accidental, and not a reliable, character.

Re: Species-Modern Crosses

by Karl K » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:46 pm

Jour. Hort. Soc. 3: 318-319 (1848)
38. Rosa rugosa. Thunb., Fl. Jap., p. 213; Lindl., Monogr. Ros. p. 5, t. 19. (Var. plena purpurea.)

Sent from China by Mr. Fortune: as a garden variety from Shanghae.

This plant has very much the appearance of R. Kamtchatica, but its leaves are more shining on the upper surface, and on the under they are closely covered with very pale whitish scentless glands.

The variety sent home by Mr. Fortune has semi-double sweet-scented flowers of a rich purple, about two inches across.

A hardy half-climbing kind, resembling the Rosa bracteata in habit, growing freely in any good, rich soil, and easily increased by budding or by cuttings in the usual way. It flowers from June to August. It is a distinct, but not very ornamental kind, with sweet-scented semi-double deep purple flowers.
August 14, 1848
http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/item ... 8/mode/1up
It is a bit amusing that the editor makes a point of identifying this new rose with Thunberg's Japanese Rosa rugosa even though it was collected in China (where R. rugosa is also native). Also, the growth habit suggests it was a hybrid, possibly with a reblooming Semperflorens.

And another thing:
The Gardeners' Chronicle 40(1023): 95-96 (Aug 4, 1906)

M. Maurice de Vilmorin communicated a note on a new hybrid Rose, a painting of which he passed round for the examination of the Conference, between Rosa rugosa and R. foliolosa, which had the advantage of flowering late in the season.

Mr. Paul congratulated Mr. de Vilmorin on his acquisition.

The Chairman said he should like to ask whether the long flowering was in any way connected with not setting seed?

M. Vilmorin said it was not—it produced good seed.
This is worth mentioning because 'Basye's Purple', of similar breeding, is not as free-blooming or fruitful as one might hope.

Re: Species-Modern Crosses

by Karl K » Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:39 pm

Kevin Brownlee wrote:Wow, Karl! You'll eventually have us at the Big Bang! I'd assumed the naturalizing/invasive cluster repeaters of today were species. Who knew? I'll be interested to see what else you find. Thanks!
We wouldn't have to go back quite that far. A trip back to the Cretaceous could reveal a lot about the forced isolation and subsequent speciation of roses in North America; e.g., the splitting of Rosa blanda and R. woodsii. And the later Ice Age, followed by the continental uplift might give an idea of how R. foliolosa was separated from R. palustris, and the latter pushed eastward.

In the mean time, a clue from Maurice Vilmorin (1905):
"Such great qualities could not escape the passionate cultivators of the rose, and in the very country of the rough-leaved rosebush, in Japan, the species was crossed or naturally crossed with at least two other native species: the Rosa Semperflorens or Bengal, either typical, or more probably already transformed, and Rosa multiflora. From the first crossing came the rosebush Taïkoun, with foliage narrower than that of rugosa, but with large, double and fragrant flowers. From the second proceeds the Rosa Ywara of Siebold, a beautiful compact shrub 2 meters high, with abundant foliage, but small white flowers, of insufficient consistency and short duration."
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/ ... a1905.html

And the pictures of 'Calocarpa', another hybrid of China and Rugosa, has rugose leaves that are narrower than those of "typical" rugosas, and bears flowers in large clusters.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/Rose_Pict ... carpa.html

Re: Species-Modern Crosses

by Paul Olsen » Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:02 pm

One thing that intrigues me about the Rugosas 'George Will' and 'Roseraie de l'Hay' is their narrow leaflets. How did they come about?

'George Will' - Frank Skinner, the originator, likely stated its parentage incorrectly. Rather than (Rosa rugosa x R. acicularis) x a "garden rose", because it's a diploid I'm inclined to believe it was Rosa rugosa x R. woodsii, and because of its very good cold hardiness (Zone 2) I wonder if this selecton was selfed to cause some kind of incompatibility that produced the narrow leaflets.

'Roseraie de l'Hay - Because it's not very fertile as a pistillate parent, coupled with its narrow leaflets, again this suggests genetic distortion, but caused from what? Apparently this cultivar is a diploid, and if so so I would say it's likely 100% Rosa rugosa.

It would be interesting to do some studies on how double Rugosas could have been developed by selfing genotypes having single flowers.

Re: Species-Modern Crosses

by Kevin Brownlee » Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:14 pm

Wow, Karl! You'll eventually have us at the Big Bang! I'd assumed the naturalizing/invasive cluster repeaters of today were species. Who knew? I'll be interested to see what else you find. Thanks!

Re: Species-Modern Crosses

by Karl K » Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:59 pm

Kevin Brownlee wrote:Karl - I'm curious, if I'm following this thread accurately, why you don't also suspect thunbergia of being a hybrid. It's very drought tolerant. I think that's true of any plant adapted to the desert-like conditions of the beach. Fru Dagmar Hastrup strikes me as the most regeliana-like rugosa on the market, with its larger flowers, larger, lusher foliage and smaller stature. I have a hedge of 50 FDH and it not infrequently sports (or reverts?) to a consistent deep purple. I can't shake the suspicion that it's a sport of regeliana.
I've continued checking the old descriptions and reports of Rosa rugosa and its allies. Thunberg wrote that the R. rugosa he collected at Miaco (Miyako) bore its solitary flowers in May and June. No clusters, no rebloom.

The plant known in England as R. fexox was also a once bloomer with solitary.

The small-leaved R. kamtchatica of Vent. usually bore solitary flowers, but sometimes they came "deux à deux". In France, it flowered in June, but gave some blooms in autumn.

Then something changed. Maximowicz collected seeds in Japan, and sent them to St. Petersburg. From there, the plants (or seed from the plants) were distributed to other gardens. By the early 1860s some of these reached Belgium.

Vilmorin (1905) gave some insight into what happened next. "Seedlings, without hybridization, have already given important variations in the coloring and doubling of flowers." Other novelties came from deliberate or accidental hybridization.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/ ... a1905.html

I am now of the opinion (subject to revision) that the seeds collected by Maximowicz were already hybrids, or derived of hybrids. But of what?

The plants bred and selected in western Europe, descended from Maximowicz's collection, probably became somewhat less hardy and thirstier than their cousins selected in the more rigorous climate of Russia.

This would be the distinction that Prof. Budd observed when he compared the plants he brought back from Russia with those received earlier.

How did "Japanese Rugosas" come to be perpetual flowering plant with clusters of flowers? I don't know, yet. But it does sometimes happen that hybrids of once-blooming species give rise to perpetual flowering progeny. If not in the first generation, then perhaps in the second or later.

Re: Species-Modern Crosses

by rosefanatico » Fri Feb 24, 2017 5:24 pm

Hi and thank you all for the help. Margit, I believe Chuck sent you my email address. I just looked at Alice on HMF and to me the color is darker and the leaves are different. I have Wasagaming, Lady Elsie May and Frontenac and it is none of those. I purchased it about 7- 8 years ago in Ottawa at an independently owned seasonal garden centre that was operating in a Loblaws parking lot (that was before that Loblaws ran its own garden shop). The tag (which I lost) was from Canada and said to the best of my knowledge "Northern Canada Shrub Rose" I thought it was Therese Bugnet because the leaves are similar. Later when I saw it was not Therese I researched the company and the rose at the time I found nothing. I discussed it at Galettas and have looked through the Ottawa Experimental Farm rose collection to no avail. I have some of the Prairie oldies and almost every Explorer, Parkland etc. well lets say I have hundreds of hardy roses that survive my harsh zone 3b/4 garden and this one is a stand out. The bush is about 4.5 ft. tall and vase shaped. It is feet away from a lake open to the west winds and as can be seen in the photo only minor tip damage. And again I cannot stress the bloom production. I was lucky to be able to get a sucker (it is more of a clump with no real runner like suckers) to root as a just in case replacement. I am frustrated but hopeful. Carmen

Re: Species-Modern Crosses

by donaldvancouver » Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:24 pm

Margit- your knowledge is an inspiration. I had never heard of Augusta. Do you (or anyone) have a sucker or cutting?

Re: Species-Modern Crosses

by Margit Schowalter » Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:14 pm

My first thought was Percy Wright's 'Augusta'. Weak necked floppy blossoms, long bloom period, no hips, fragrant. But it is unlikely any nursery is propagating or selling it.
Can you tell us the name of the nursery you purchased it from and in which province? The possibilities would be narrowed a lot if we knew this.

Re: Species-Modern Crosses

by Paul Olsen » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:07 pm

I'll take a shot at this.

Initially I thought it could be 'Frontenac', but this cultivar can set hips.

So my next guess is 'Lady Elsie May''. Outstanding repeat bloom and it can be crown hardy to a Zone 3 climate. But I'm not familiar enough with it to know if it sets hips or not.

Re: Species-Modern Crosses

by donaldvancouver » Thu Feb 23, 2017 7:08 pm

Hmm the closest thing I can think of to those photos is Wasagaming, but it usually isn't that floriferous, and the blooms should look a little more formal than the ones in your shots. Where are you located? Do you know how cold hardy it is?

Re: Species-Modern Crosses

by rosefanatico » Thu Feb 23, 2017 6:43 pm

I have Jamie. It is low to the ground , lilac colored and unfortunately not at all like this one. I have researched lost Skinner, Bugnet and Erskine roses but none are matches. What astonishes me about it is its' health, re-bloom ability and the length of bloom season. I cannot recall a day without blossoms usually many. Non stop from the time my last daffodil fades until heavy frost.

Re: Species-Modern Crosses

by chuckp » Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:31 pm


I just had a thought, I acquire "Jamie" from Robin Dening of Brentwood Bay Nersery last spring.
As HMF listing shows, "Jamie" is a sport of Therese Bugnet.


Re: Species-Modern Crosses

by rosefanatico » Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:53 pm

Thank you. I am familiar with most of Svejda's roses. I also searched for it at the Central Experimental Station in Ottawa where she did her work. I have looked at many of the roses bred in Alberta and Manitoba and it resembles none. In my zone 4a garden I grow well over 200 roses hardy to my zone. It looks most like Therese Bugnet with distinct differences. Perhaps a sport?

Re: Species-Modern Crosses

by Don » Wed Feb 22, 2017 6:30 pm

Looks like Martin Frobisher but that would not have remontancy. Check out Svejda's other Explorer roses at helpmefind.com.

Re: Species-Modern Crosses

by rosefanatico » Wed Feb 22, 2017 6:13 pm

Hi, I purchase this species cross in Canada. The tag said "Northern Canada Rose" Of my many roses this is the best performer. Always lots of repeat bloom. Fragrance, healthy and no hips. I know it looks like Therese Bugnet but it is not. The shape is different, no red in the stems and the color is more crisp and way too much repeat compared to Therese. It may make a great pollen parent and I am sure many in colder zones would love it. I have looked everywhere to identify it and no luck. Any help is appreciated.

Re: Species-Modern Crosses

by Karl K » Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:50 am

The "Voyage" report was indeed enlightening, reminding me of some matters I had not been thinking about regarding roses. For instance, I was momentarily surprised that a voyage of discovery in the northern hemisphere should return to England via the Cape of Good Hope. Of course! How else could they get back?

And the hardships. Sitting here in the 21st century, it seems a bit quaint that they would fuss so much over a dirty watch. But the watch was an important instrument for navigation.

It is perhaps helpful to know that a foreigner visiting the Sandwich Islands (Hawaii) should not shoot at a native. The other natives might take offense and stab the offender in the back. That's what happened to Cook. Many years later, Queen Victoria understood that when Queen Liliuokalani told her to get out of the flower garden, she should obey.

I was also reminded that the pace of plant life in the far north is very rapid. The season is short, but the days (light period) are long. That is probably why Rosa kamchatica has smaller leaves than its more southern kin. We see much the same thing in corn (maize). The Northern Flints have fewer leaves than the Southern Dents, and are earlier ripening. Much of the "hybrid vigor" present in the Corn Belt Dents is derived from early hybrids of the Northern and Southern races.

I also copied a map of the distribution of Rosa rugosa in China. Not all are coastal. One can only wonder about the variations that might be found in the inland regions.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/ ... a1965.html


Re: Species-Modern Crosses

by Don » Sun Feb 19, 2017 1:02 am

>> This peninsula [Kamchatka] produces great abundance of the shrub kind

The British were usually late to the exploration game and Kamchatka is no exception, the Russian Krasheninnikov having been there by way of Siberia and the port of Okhotsk in 1737. If you can find Greive's translation of Krasheninnikov's tome on Kamchatka I would not be surprised if rugosa is mentioned in it and I suspect herbaria might exist of it from the expedition if not descendant plants.

It is, indeed, fun to read about these adventures but the appalling conditions that prevailed for the explorers is no joke. The theme of Lincoln's Conquest of a Continent - Siberia and the Russians seems to be that Siberia devoured everyone who stepped foot in it. It's a bit ironic that Cook survived it only to meet his demise in a paradise. Maybe that is because he didn't get into it too far or hang around long.

Charles C. Mann's poorly titled 1493 gives a sobering retrospective outlining the unintended consequences of the exchange of biota between East and West, what his predecessor Alfred W. Crosby called the 'Columbian Exchange'. Roses are not mentioned although they should be - Japanese beetles, multiflora and even rugosa can be counted among the invasive macro species we deal with and, I guess at this point, the many microbes that infect them are too.

Re: Species-Modern Crosses

by Karl K » Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:59 am

Flora of Japan (1965) pp. 540-541
Jisaburo Ohwi

5. Rosa rugosa Thunb. R. ferox Lawrance; R. kamtschatica var. ferox (Lawrance) Géel; R. rugosa var. thunbergiana C. A. Mey.; R. rugosa var. ferox (Lawrance) C. A. Mey.—HAMA-NASU. Erect bushy shrub with stout densely short-pubescent branches with needlelike slender spines and stout flattened short-pubescent prickles; stipules broad, membranous, the free portion broadly ovate or deltoid; leaflets 7-9, nearly equal, oblong, elliptic or obovate, 3-5 cm. long, 2-3 cm. wide, obtuse to rounded, glabrous and minutely bullate or rugulose above, densely cinereous hairy and with sessile pale glandular dots; flowers 1-3, terminal, 6-10 cm. across, deep rose, the pedicels stout, erect, 1-3 cm. long, with slender prickles; calyx with a depressed-globose tube, the lobes 3-4 cm. long, appressed-pubescent and with slender prickles, sometimes with short stipitate glands; fruit subglobose, yellowish red, 2-2.5 cm. across.—June-Aug. Sandy shores; Hokkaido, Honshu on Pacific side south to n. Kantô and on Japan Sea side south to San'in Distr.).—Temperate and northern parts of e. Asia to the Kuriles, Kamchatka, and Sakhalin.
https://archive.org/stream/floraofjapan ... 0/mode/2up
In this account, R. rugosa has larger flowers than the plants raised in western Europe as R. ferox and R. kamchatica. Furthermore, the author wrote, "flowers 1-3, terminal, 6-10 cm. across". The leaves are also larger than mentioned by English and French writers.

This bit is just for fun:
A Voyage to the Pacific Ocean, for Making Discoveries in the Northern Hemisphere, vol. 4, page 121 (1784)
By James Cook, Rev. James King

This peninsula [Kamchatka] produces great abundance of the shrub kind, as mountain ash, junipers, ras-berry bushes, and wild rose-trees. Also a variety of berries, as partridge-berries, blue-berries, black-berries, cran-berries, and crow-berries. These are gathered at proper seasons, and preserved by mashing them into a thick jam. They constitute a considerable part of their winter provisions, serving as a general sauce to their dried fish. They also eat them in puddings, and in various other modes; and make decoctions of them for their common beverage.

https://books.google.com/books?id=G00bA ... &q&f=false
This expedition carried botanists who made collections of botanical specimens, but I don't know yet what they collected, or whether any seeds where sown after the crew returned to England.