Recommendations for healthiest Austin Roses

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Re: Recommendations for healthiest Austin Roses

by mntlover » Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:10 pm

Mike: thanks for the thoughts. I have Graham Thomas, Golden Celebration & Lilian Austin, among others: haven't found Charles Austin.
I keep hoping to find information on some of the newer varieties. I know the parentage is usually listed as seedling X seedling. So I'm hoping to hear how the health has been on some of the newer varieties. Also, are they good for breeding, esp. seed parents vs. pollen.
Thanks again!
Duane

Re: Recommendations for healthiest Austin Roses

by philip_la » Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:53 am

Duane, Mike and others on this forum will have much more experience than I, so heed their observations and take my comments with a grain of salt. I have only recently begun working with the Kordes and do not have all the ones on the list of suggestions I gave. Those that I do have have given pretty hefty heps with plump seeds thus far, though not with as much consistency as some of my other breeders. And to be fair, following some other posts I did a little research, and I will concede that Austins with which I have played predated any of my Kordes roses by more than a decade, so my generalizations probably do not hold for newer roses.

Teasing Georgia was one of the healthier ones I grew, but in my climate, she wanted to be an 8 foot monster before she would even think about blooming, and I never got any offspring from her. Some of the Kordes cultivars have similar monstrous habits, but those in the sunbelt line, for instance, have thus far bloomed as smaller shrubs for me.

Re: Recommendations for healthiest Austin Roses

by mntlover » Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:23 pm

Thanks for the recommendations!
I have each of those except Charles Austin: I was trying to find it.
I'll have to try the pollen route for Ab.Darb. & Gold. Celeb. I tried the seed this year. Some results, but no telling what they are yet and far fewer than I would have hoped. So I'll try switching them to pollen parent.

I tested with James Gallway and A Shropshire Lad and got seed from both that is germinating. James Gallway looks like close to 50%, we'll see how they look in a while.

Have a few from Lilian Austin, but not many.

I hadn't tried Charlotte at all, maybe I'll give it a go.

Thanks again!
Duane

Re: Recommendations for healthiest Austin Roses

by semiplenus » Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:49 pm

If you study Austin's roses (and their descendants by others) carefully, you will notice patterns with some of the frequently used older roses that result in seedlings in the yellow-orange range. If you are looking for better-than-average (compared to the usual, older English Roses') disease resistance, the following reveal themselves as potential choices among the older varieties:

Seed parents:
Charles Austin
Graham Thomas
Lilian Austin - maybe not most of the seedlings will be yellow but there are some, and I think there is potential here for a wide range of color depending on the pollen parent

Pollen parents:
Abraham Darby - may also be used for seed, which it sets easily, but best results seem to be from pollen
Charlotte - might not do the best job at transmitting yellow, but its offspring are pretty resistant
Golden Celebration - as with Abraham Darby

Careful choice of disease-resistant mates is warranted, of course. Some of the newer Austin introductions will undoubtedly be more disease-resistant and pass on that characteristic to a greater degree than some of the older intros. Time will tell, but it is clear that it has been a major focus over at least the last ten years, probably more, from Mr. Austin.

Regards,
Mike

Re: Recommendations for healthiest Austin Roses

by mntlover » Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:43 am

Philip - thank you for the recommendations! The only one I possess currently is Cinderela Fairy Tale. Tried different pollens on it, only one took. I was excited about the one hip and the seeds I got from it, but none germinated: tried extracting embryos but they still didn't germinate, so I'm not sure what's up... I'll try again, and the pollen as well.
I have looked at Summer Romance, mainly because I would like fragrance as well as disease resistance, which seems like it may have to be a balancing act.

Any of these you strongly recommend? Any work as seed parents?

David & Philip - David Austin's roses are what got me growing roses for my wife two decades ago: we will always owe him that. Interestingly, we can usually spot at a glance a difference between an English rose and the other lines. (Perhaps it is what he refers to as charm). My wife still prefers his because of that factor. For breeding I am very interested in more disease resistant varieties. But balancing all the characteristics desired I think will be required: although I wouldn't mind suddenly having a rose that had everything I wanted dropped in my lap.

Thanks again!
Duane

Re: Recommendations for healthiest Austin Roses

by david mears » Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:51 am

No not at all Phillip, I honestly think they got onto his lines to sell a product "similar" to his. If by chance you want to know something in particular to one of Mr. Austins rose I could "try" to find some info for you.

Re: Recommendations for healthiest Austin Roses

by philip_la » Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:07 am

Don't get me wrong, David. I am a fan of David Austin, and I appreciate that he made *tremendous* contributions to the rose world. He pioneered the renaissance of an entire genre of roses, and for that I am eternally grateful. I probably would not have learned to love roses were it not for him. I hated roses because of my recollections of the thorny HT's at my childhood home, throwing the occasional long stemmed cutting flower, but otherwise having bad hair days and requiring oodles of stinky chemicals just so as to not look outrageously sickly. It was through an introduction to the antiques and "found" roses that I came to appreciate the genus. For that reason alone, Austins appealed to me -- they instilled in me my ideas of the ideal rose since they reminded me so much of the antiques that *worked* in gardens.

I have two different vendors (in my day job) that I work with, not because they developed innovative products --in both cases the companies evolved from the marketing dept's of the original product innovators and stole their marketing lists -- but I work with them rather because they sell today the better product at a better price. I hate supporting companies that exploited another, but at the end of the day, I have to do what makes sense for my work.

Yes, the Romanticas, the Generosas, many of the Kordes and other roses can thank Austin for the ability to sell their product. Indeed, Austin roses figure into the pedigrees of many of these. IMO, they stand on David Austin's shoulders, and if I am ever successful, I in turn will stand on theirs.

I apologize if I came off as disparaging David Austin. That was not my intention, and was clumsy of me.

Re: Recommendations for healthiest Austin Roses

by david mears » Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:42 pm

Hi Phillip, can I suggest that the rose Mr Austin developed others have followed to cash in on the market that he made. Yes I agree that they do not do well everywhere. I do have a friend that works at David Austins and before we get them here in Australia I ask what they "might" do in our hot climate, that is my influence on my purchase, also we are sometimes 4 or 5 years behind due to our quarantine.

Re: Recommendations for healthiest Austin Roses

by philip_la » Sat Jan 26, 2019 8:45 pm

I too was going to suggest that high-centered is *not* the default, save the fact that rosarians spent a good half-century chucking all of the not-so-high-centered roses.
I would also suggest that pretty much *any* Kordes rose introduced this millenium is likely to have better health than an English Rose. I'm leaning on Kordes' work moving forward. A few examples (not all of which might be available in your market) Check other's experiences in your climate since some can get pretty big in milder climes, and some are better suited to hot weather than others:

Earth Angel
Florentina
Cream Veranda
Red Riding Hood
Pomanella
Summer romance
Laguna
Kiss Me Kate
Freifrau Caroline
Soul Sister
Amaretto
Fairytale Magic
Larissa

Re: Recommendations for healthiest Austin Roses

by mntlover » Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:22 pm

Excellent point: shown by some of Austins own introductions that didn't include his roses or old roses in the breeding, such as Abraham Darby.

Re: Recommendations for healthiest Austin Roses

by MidAtlas » Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:27 am

Bloom form is probably more closely linked to petal count than anything; whenever you work with crosses where both parents either have, or have the capacity to pass on, a relatively high petal count, you'll dramatically increase your chances of finding various so-called "old-fashioned" flower forms cropping up among their offspring. Many more named roses with those flower forms would exist today, especially in those classes we least associate with them, if those forms weren't so strongly selected against as a matter of fashion and taste (and sometimes more practical considerations!); the latent capacity to be bred in that direction is present in all fertile roses.

Stefan

Re: Recommendations for healthiest Austin Roses

by mntlover » Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:35 pm

Wondering if someone who mentioned trying to get to that end by a different route might have hit the nail on the head.
Duane

Re: Recommendations for healthiest Austin Roses

by Rob Byrnes » Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:32 pm

Duane,

I didn't get far enough to try them as parents. BS and leaf spots were a problem for me and the Austin roses that I had got pulled. Love the look of those fully double blooms and the scent but spots is a big issue here and they didn't do well. Sorry I can't have a more positive response for you.

Re: Recommendations for healthiest Austin Roses

by mntlover » Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:23 pm

Rob - resurrecting this old discussion to find out what your results were with Darcey Bussel: fertile either direction? Pass on good genetics?
What about the other two?
Duane

Re: Recommendations for healthiest Austin Roses

by Rob Byrnes » Mon Nov 07, 2016 8:52 am

Thank you for your input David and Philip.

Re: Recommendations for healthiest Austin Roses

by philip_la » Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:33 pm

42" is definitely quite an underestimate in my opinion. It has grown to nearly double the size of comparably aged KO roses. It's an Austin, and fits the usual beastly bill. I think I saw JohnJel describe it as a climber, which *might* explain mine, though it is somewhat self supporting... It took a few years to really start blooming for me, but did pretty well once it started. If you nag me, I can share cuttings. (I don't think it is patented, is it?) I understand it roots pretty easily. It does set hips, though I have not had the opportunity to try and grow any of them on.

The blooms on mine are probably about 2 1/2 inches across, and in warm weather, somewhat washed out in color. I suspect that in a more temperate climate, they might be a little more impressive. The first spring flush is certainly more attractive than any sporadic later blooms in our heat.

Re: Recommendations for healthiest Austin Roses

by david mears » Fri Nov 04, 2016 3:17 pm

Rob,
This might be a bit of useless info, but most of my Austins, here in Australia, Zone 8b/9a will get above the HMF sizes. The parentage tree on HMF also tends to lean towards bigger type plants on the seed side of the family, the pollen is not disclosed. I think Teasing Georgia would make a great parent.

Re: Recommendations for healthiest Austin Roses

by Rob Byrnes » Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:31 am

Philip wrote:I only have Teasing Georgia, and I grow it in a rather difficult site. It has been a definite survivor, with only a modicum of BS (no worse than any of the "EarthKind" roses in the same area) and, once established, it has been rather drought resistant as well. The color is a little insipid, being sort of honey-yellow, and it wants to be a beast before blooming, but it is a healthy rose for me. Apparently, it has enough of a reputation that Portmeirion has a china pattern featuring the cultivar which I recently saw in a store... http://purelyportmeirion.co.uk/WebRoot/ ... C07913.jpg

Philip,

Thank you for sharing your experience with Teasing Georgia. Have you used it as a parent? Does it set hips and how large does it get for you? HMF lists height at 42" but in some of the pictures, it looks LARGE. Thank you.

Re: Recommendations for healthiest Austin Roses

by Philip » Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:27 pm

I only have Teasing Georgia, and I grow it in a rather difficult site. It has been a definite survivor, with only a modicum of BS (no worse than any of the "EarthKind" roses in the same area) and, once established, it has been rather drought resistant as well. The color is a little insipid, being sort of honey-yellow, and it wants to be a beast before blooming, but it is a healthy rose for me. Apparently, it has enough of a reputation that Portmeirion has a china pattern featuring the cultivar which I recently saw in a store... http://purelyportmeirion.co.uk/WebRoot/ ... C07913.jpg

Re: Recommendations for healthiest Austin Roses

by Rob Byrnes » Fri Oct 28, 2016 2:54 pm

david zlesak wrote:Although Austin Roses can be very beautiful, maybe there are multiple routes to getting the kind of look, fragrance, health, etc. you are looking for. I love the flower form and fragrances too. I haven't tried the newer Austin roses in recent years, but Heritage and Sir Clough have been relatively healthy in MN. I love Will Radler's Orchid Romance for an old fashioned style with fragrant double blooms. The plant is manageable and healthy too. It is triploid and not too fertile. I should try harder with it as a male. I want to try some more groups of roses and don't have too much experience with them yet, but the Kordes Perfuma roses, Meilland Romantica roses, etc. seem very nice. How do they do by you Rob? I love the fragrance of Meilland rose Dee-Lish. Although it doesn't seem to have much pollen, it has produced seeds when pollinated and I'm getting some germination now. It has some Austin Rose genetics in its background.
Hello David,

Can you share how your Dee-lish seedlings turned out?

Rob

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